The Idea

[Mr. Slick]

Slow Steve and I are now the co-chairs for the Northern Star Council's Pinewood Derby! We are going to have some real fun now.

Here is a link to the summary about Northern Star Council: www.nsbsa.org/AboutUs/



Note that we are one of the largest councils in the country and Slow Steve and I hope to use that to help advance some Pinewood Derby Racing!

We are currently waiting to hear back from National on some of the things we want to do. . . can you say organized region races(Geographical administrative units of the BSA: Northeast Region, Southern Region, Central Region, and Western Region) and even an open national race! We are hoping to find other enthusiasts in the other regions to help out!

I will tell you that there is going to be a MAJOR re-production of "The Rules" into a "How-To Guide" format that is Cub Friendly this spring/summer for our council to be used by all 22 districts. It will be available by September for the 2010 race year. Do you want to help out?

In the mean time you may want to check out the Central Florida Council's rules.

seminoletrails.com/district/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/cfcrules041809rev.pdf

You have to see this intro! seminoletrails.com/

We hope to get some high quality TRAINING curriculum done and out to everyone for doing things like rule development, car inspections, workshops, races, etc.

One thing I keep reminding myself is that Don Murphy created Pinewood Derby to fill a need - as things have changed it is ok for us to change parts of the program to continue to fulfill the objectives and not get stuck in practices/rules/other things that are purely historical.

[Redshift]

I love the idea. I never considered to have a how-to guide that included the rules. I was just in the process of trying to get the rules updated for our district... but this is so good, I may pitch to the council.

I would be glad to help out, I am no expert at this. Let me know what I can do to help and I do my best. I raced go karts as a teenage in to my early twenties. We view the rules as if it doesn't mention it, then it was legal. Maybe not the best attitude for scouting, but that was how we played.

[fatdaddy]

I just pitched the idea to our local council program head, who didnt even consider the idea before telling me no. Seems people in our area are resistant to change.

[Mr. Slick]

I need to get it done so why not share with others too and the BIG dream is to get that all elusive national race under a common set of rules. "How-To Guide" instructions and explanations. ;D

The "How-To Guide" is to be done and ready for publication by SEPTEMBER 2009 for the 2010 race season.

That would give the councils enough time to get it out to the districts and the packs!

[gpraceman]

Trying to achieve a standard set of rules (or How-To Guide) is going to be a hard sell with some. However, I do think it necessary and the effort has to start somewhere!

If enough districts and councils get involved, then maybe BSA will listen up and implement it for all.

Still there will be those very resistant to any change and some rules will be quite controversial (i.e. allowing canted axles, raised wheels, grooved axles, what work can be done to the wheels, etc.).

[Mr. Slick]

I don't think we can get it into the official BSA literature for at least a few years. We CAN start using it ourselves and sharing it with everyone else.

Remember Don Murphy came up with an idea and the BSA adopted it later. . . only time will tell if we can make a difference.

[psycaz]

Good Luck Warren, Slow Steve.

I think you have the right approach. Start with what you have control over. Show others how easy it is, since the work is done. You'll get more converts that way than you think.

I'm sure you are planning to work top down. Find the highest race that the scouts can go to and work them on the rules.

Everyone under becomes easier since the ultimate goal is to move on with the racing and might as well build to the rules that will be used. It's what finally won over our group. Why have diifferent (stricter) rules. You put your scouts at a disadvantage once they advance.

[gpraceman]

Maybe I should get something clarified, so I'm not running off on the wrong assumption.

Is your intention to have this How-To Guide include a set of rules within it, like the Central Florida Council's rules/guide? Or will this be more of a generic guide that will work with a variety of rules?

[Mr. Slick]

We will start with the rules for Northern Star council 2010 race season.

If done correctly, the "rules" should actually just be an appendix in the back for reference purposes only.

The intent is to allow things that the kids can do and to get rid of things like "four on the floor" and "must use slots" type of concepts that are actually hard for a young child to achieve! Think of all the things possible with the DerbyWorx tools for example.

[gpraceman]

Thanks for the clarification. I thought that was the case.

Another issue to consider is that different track setups are used. Some of the rules/how-to's would need appropriate variations to address that (center lane guides vs edge guides, differing starting pin height, height of finish line timer, etc.). Some rules can be a fill in the blank on the particular spec (e.g. pin height).

Once this guide is developed, it might be good to have it posted on its very own website. I'd be happy to host it on my web server at no cost. Someone would just need to pickup the domain registration cost.

[DerbyDominator]

I have been considering for some while a rules suggestion page for the website as I get quite a number of confused parents inquiring about certain speed tips and not knowing or understanding what their local rules are. To that end, this is a great idea. One of the difficulties you will see is that districts will want to change or add to them to fit in their own little restriction or freedom. One thing you might want to do is to create the standard rules foundation and then options to write up certain rules if indeed they wish to include that option in their own local rules. You would have a separate write-up for lightened wheels, tread modifications, hub coning, axle grooves, lubricant etc. Obviously, this could get a bit messy, but any guide to race administrators on how to set up their local rules is a great idea. It certainly beats the "we are to use the rules in the box" comment that at least a third of the people I speak with respond with when I ask them what their local rules are.

One could have a "highly restricted" version of the rules, a "less restrictive" version, a
stock" version, a "moderately advanced" version, "advanced version" whatever, to give administrators options to use for their local rules as well. Then state what the national race will use for rules as a suggestion. People are very opinionated over pinewood derby races and will not likely accept one set of rules. Presenting them options that have standard form to write up those rules sections however would be a big step in the right direction. Anything is better than what they have now, which is "in the box".

Let me know a few name options that you are considering for a separate website if interested and I can take care of the domain registration search and fees if you want.

Excellent idea though!!!

Darryl
www.DerbyDominator.com

[Lucky 13]

Mar 25, 2009 12:58:27 GMT -6 @psycaz said:

Good Luck Warren, Slow Steve.

I think you have the right approach. Start with what you have control over. Show others how easy it is, since the work is done. You'll get more converts that way than you think.

I'm sure you are planning to work top down. Find the highest race that the scouts can go to and work them on the rules.

Everyone under becomes easier since the ultimate goal is to move on with the racing and might as well build to the rules that will be used. It's what finally won over our group. Why have diifferent (stricter) rules. You put your scouts at a disadvantage once they advance.

Great point Psycaz !! I was recently asked by our Council to revised our rules for the 2010 pinewood derby season. The cool thing here is that all the local Districts and Packs always adopt the Council rules and it really makes things so much easier. Were we use to live did not have this same principal and it made it very hard when moving to the next level of racing.

Warren,

Are you looking to just use one set of rules/How To's for everyone or are you looking at something like DerbyDominator posted with several different levels of rules ?


Lucky 13

[Mr. Slick]

One set -- one division in other words. Other divisions would be in appendix format. . .

This is the 90/10 principle being applied. Assumptions will be made to limit the scope.

For example, will NOT address pin height except to be limited to 1/4" above the center line of the axle. We can explain the high leading edge/cheater paper clip in a historical tricks section, but in reality I just don't want to cater to the people who don't want to change the flip direction or add couple of rubber bands to the starting lever to make it fairer.

To make use of this certain minimum functionality of the track/facility will be needed. The use of a computer will be assumed. Timed racing will be used because I will not have kids eliminated from the racing before it is done.

Some of the basics would be the total vehicle height is going to be 3" --- higher is just too "out of range" for 99.999% of cars.

Tracks will be CENTER GUIDE - refer to a side guide track as an appendix for the few side guided tracks if we get time.

We can address 90% to 95% of the race situations with only 10% of the effort to address all of the odd ball configurations that are in use.

REMEMBER this effort is to try and create a STANDARD - IT IS NOT INTENDED, NOR WILL IT, work for all existing situations because some people have different situations, budgets, history, biases, etc.

DO NOT LET THE SEARCH FOR PERFECTION LIMIT THE PRODUCTION OF THE GOOD OR THE GREAT!

If this seems too hard line then don't bother with this area of the forum because it will be FOCUSED - not a random everybody is included area.

Thanks.

Warren

[steepslope]

I hadn't seen any updates to this thread lately so I thought I would ask a few questions. I am now on the "District PWD Committee." I have this in quotes because it is really not official and it is only comprised of 3 people. The chairperson wants to condense the rules from last year, a whole 7 pages, into 1 or 2 pages. Apparently, 7 pages was too much information for a lot of people. I know. I looked at the 21 page handout from the Florida council. Very through and easy to read. So, I am trying to help out by referring them to our Pure Stock rules. My questions are these. How many of you have rules that allow rail riding, raised fourth wheel, extended wheelbase, and canting? Except for extended wheelbase, our rules don't address the other possibilities. In fact, I have not seen anyone that has utilized them yet in our area. I just looked over last years district rules and it doesn't say anything about NOT being able to cant, slot, or raise the fourth wheel. So what I am looking for is opinion on allowing these techniques at the cub scout level.

steepslope24

[psycaz]

We allow only three wheels touching, as well as canting.

Kids putting in axles, cars end up this way anyways, just easier at checkin. All things a scout can do on purpose as well. Done with a drill and ruler.

Must use nails and slots. Can move the slots, but must maintain the 4 3/8". Another ruler thing. That and two hack saw blades taped together come darn close to the slot width. Can't tell the difference.

No lightened wheels. Level playing field for those without tool skills - a little more difficult to do.

Must use dry lubes (don't like this one, but it is what it is).

Hope this helps.