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Post by Slow Steve on Sept 18, 2008 23:09:08 GMT -6
My fellow Limited class builders... I was discussing car building techniques with a fellow Limited builder this afternoon when he said something about pinewood that made me stop and think...
Tonight I read the "Limited" class rules and rule number 1 clearly states "The main body must be made of Pinewood." All three of my newest cars, Orange car, The Emperor and my daughter's car are not in accordance with the rules, because their bodies are made from the 1/4" x 2" basswood. Groovy Greenie and Sushi are both solid cars with routed out areas made from BSA blocks and are at least 3/8" thick at the rear (as is Max's Cub Scout car).
Certainly the appropriate thing to do is to retire Orange Car and my daughters car (I haven't yet raced The Emperor because it needs alignment work, so I'll just pitch it). If Orange Car earned any builders points please remove them.
This makes me sick. I want everyone to know that I did not intentionally try to skirt the rules by using the Basswood; I saw it at the hobby store and thought it would make building much easier than cutting down the doggone BSA blocks. I was ignorant of the rules, and the thought that using the basswood might not be allowed never even crossed my mind. I apologize for this... while not intentional that doesn't matter, ignorance is no excuse, and basswood is not pine. It's frickin' rule #1 for cripes sake!
My daughters car even won a trophy at Bluegrass... which should rightfully go to whomever got fourth place at the Bluegrass race in the youth Limited class (TJR, Beaker's son). I feel it appropriate to send him the 3rd place trophy for Youth Limited, because my daughter's car (which I predominantly built) did not follow the rules (there is no pinewood in it at all).
Please accept my apology for this inadvertant oversight. All my future Limited cars will definitely have a main body made of pinewood.
Steve B.
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Post by ProQuest on Sept 19, 2008 0:09:15 GMT -6
Slow Steve:
First, while I can't officially speak for the league, I imagine that many will share my sentiment that I know you would never consciously break any rule in an effort to gain a competitive advantage. There is no doubt that the mistake was an honest one. But don't be so sure it was your mistake!!! It could have been our mistake. Until a very few weeks ago the link on the PWDR home page to the rules would take builders to the 2007 rules without clearly stating that they were the 2007 rules. The 2007 rules did not specifically require that Pine had to be used in the Limited Division. It is HIGHLY likely that when you started racing here earlier this year you followed the link on the home page to the 2007 rules without knowing that they were the 2007 rules, you read the rules, and seeing no restriction on the type of wood, proceeded to use a Pine alternative. My instinct tells me that that is what actually happened.
Again, I can't speak for the league, or anyone other than myself for that matter, but my vote would be to retire or reclassify the cars in questions, let the points stand, and give two 3rd place awards for the BGN Youth class. Any seconds???
Just my 2 cents.
Steve H.
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Post by Lucky 13 on Sept 19, 2008 0:44:09 GMT -6
Steve, Your honesty is very appreciated. I feel that what has happened, has happened. The cars passed inspection and where allowed to race, that (IMO) cannot and should not be changed. Retiring the cars now that you have realized they are not within the PWDR Limited rules is the right thing to do and very respectful. I have 100% faith in the fact that this was a mistake, not a purposeful attempt to try to gain any advantage.
I say let your daughter keep the BGN trophy, you can't take a trophy away from a child. I will contact the trophy supplier I used for the BGN and see if I can get another trophy made for TJR Racing and go that route.
Again, Thanks for the honesty.
Lucky 13
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Post by beakerboysracing on Sept 19, 2008 5:54:03 GMT -6
My fellow Limited class builders... I was discussing car building techniques with a fellow Limited builder this afternoon when he said something about pinewood that made me stop and think... Tonight I read the "Limited" class rules and rule number 1 clearly states "The main body must be made of Pinewood." All three of my newest cars, Orange car, The Emperor and my daughter's car are not in accordance with the rules, because their bodies are made from the 1/4" x 2" basswood. Groovy Greenie and Sushi are both solid cars with routed out areas made from BSA blocks and are at least 3/8" thick at the rear (as is Max's Cub Scout car). Certainly the appropriate thing to do is to retire Orange Car and my daughters car (I haven't yet raced The Emperor because it needs alignment work, so I'll just pitch it). If Orange Car earned any builders points please remove them. This makes me sick. I want everyone to know that I did not intentionally try to skirt the rules by using the Basswood; I saw it at the hobby store and thought it would make building much easier than cutting down the doggone BSA blocks. I was ignorant of the rules, and the thought that using the basswood might not be allowed never even crossed my mind. I apologize for this... while not intentional that doesn't matter, ignorance is no excuse, and basswood is not pine. It's frickin' rule #1 for cripes sake! My daughters car even won a trophy at Bluegrass... which should rightfully go to whomever got fourth place at the Bluegrass race in the youth Limited class (TJR, Beaker's son). I feel it appropriate to send him the 3rd place trophy for Youth Limited, because my daughter's car (which I predominantly built) did not follow the rules (there is no pinewood in it at all). Please accept my apology for this inadvertant oversight. All my future Limited cars will definitely have a main body made of pinewood. Steve B. Man....I just knew you had to be cheating! Just kidding! ;D Steve, it takes a REALLY BIG MAN to admit when he has done wrong. I applaud you for that. Especially to air it to all that read this board. It just goes to show that you are truly a good person. The trophies are just plastic, they will collect dust, and in the future will pobably be forgotten for what they are. I think the greatest enjoyment I (and my boys) get from PWD is the chance for father and son to bond over something as simple as a block of wood with four wheels on it, and the friendships and relationships we have gained by racing in the league. No peice of plastic will EVER replace that! Let your daughter keep the trophy, she earned it in my opinion. Anyway, we got a TRACK out of the whole deal! ;D Now I got the tools to beat you on the track even when your cheating See ya Scott Beakerboys PS Steve, don't trash those two cars, they are totally legal over at WIRL. You can go chase Alaster over there.
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Post by Mr. Slick on Sept 19, 2008 6:29:52 GMT -6
Rule #1: If a car has passed inspection and allowed to race it will not be reinspected or disqualified once it has passed. (In ANY race, not just league racing. . . don't get me started on the Lima method of inspection AFTER the race in order to save time up front. . . . ) Once "little Johnny" has won, he has won and no amount of complaints from other parents can change that. Race officials just have to able to stand up and defend the inspection process and protect the winner from other parents -- or their own in your case! ok, from the discussions on the "Why PINEWOOD" from long long ago. . . . even last year it was not that term. . . . but we wanted to tighten the use of ANY wood in the Novice and Limited divisions. Since Novice has the possibility of non-BSA cars we couldn't use the BSA blocks only terminology. and The use of the term "PINEWOOD" is not meant to dictate that it has to be a PINE SPECIES of wood but rather that it has to be a SOFT WOOD SPECIES LIKE PINE. . . .we wanted to state that it had to be from a block out of a BSA kit but that was over ridden. . . . Believe me, after doing wood product research for several years and being involved in the sawing/milling of millions of board feet of various pine species each week, I know "Pine" in all of its varieties . . . The use of "PINEWOOD" is to avoid the use of extremely stiff/hard types of wood in the Novice and Limited Divisions. Hard woods/metals allow for greater precision in making axle holes and the reduction of the "non-tungsten" amount of car. It also prevents the use of very light weight woods (balsa) that allow for a lighter body percentage from the wood and more tungsten where it's fastest. It is quite common for people at ALL levels to use an alternate species. Not even all of the kits have used PINE all the time. From another forum: So, when I am checking the cars, I look to see if you have a soft wood(non-metal like) frame that is holding the axles instead of having the axles connected to a "specialized" frame structure. So the point about the axles being connected to wood is actually more important then the specific type of wood. Now we can open discussion up for the 2009 version of the rules. . . .
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Post by 3cubdad on Sept 19, 2008 7:35:32 GMT -6
Warren, I have to say I agree with you completely on rule #1! (both parts!) As one of the inspectors at BGN, I can promise all that we took a VERY close look at all the cars. However, once it's on the car, I'm not sure anyone would be able to speciate which softwood was on the car without destructive testing! (there were a couple that were pushing the envelope as to whether there was enough wood to constitute a "body" but that's different!) I can tell you that if there were any questions we caucused the judges, Bob, and even brought in Warren on a couple of questions, and the opinion was always unanimous. This leads to the second point, Steve's post exemplifies one of the things I love about this league, and it was also re-enforced at BGN. For the most part, we are self-policing as to rules compliance. Inspecting over 200 cars at BGN, I can honestly say that the only rules violations we found were inadvertent and very understandable. (minor weight issues, width due to earring backers, a couple of minor length issues, a few mis-classified cars, etc.) SlowSteve could have never said anything, just retired the cars, and no-one would have ever known. When he told me about this last night, that was never an option to him. As Scott said, that says a lot about Steve, and also about why we spend so much time with the "little wood cars" (as my wife calls them!) Scott, kudos to you also for your reaction and honest perspective. I am glad to say that your reaction was 100% on target with my prediction as to what it would be to Steve! That speaks volumes to your character and integrity! And honestly, it wasn't that much of a help now was it? I mean the car came in 3rd! ;D ;D ;D Warren, it may be an interesting discussion for the 2009 rules! But before we begin the discussion on "pinewood", can we discuss the definition of "wood" ?? ;D ;D ;D Believe it or not, I may be serious! I've been experimenting with a new body material and can't decide if it meets the definition of wood! It's actually closer to MDF, you know, where saw dust is mixed with a resin or glue and then compressed to make a "board". Would we still consider that "wood" ? ohhhh man, this is going to be a long discussion! Steve 3CubDad
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Post by Mr. Slick on Sept 19, 2008 7:55:10 GMT -6
Simple answer: If the fibers are held together by a native/natural resin then it is considered wood, otherwise it is a composite material. I have a car that is made of an experimental version of Fibrex (r) which is a wood composite used for fenestration. . . # Today, Renewal by Andersen® window frames are made with Fibrex® material which is made with reclaimed wood from our manufacturing processes, reducing the demand for wood resources # 40% of Fibrex material is reclaimed wood fiber www.renewalbyandersen.com/why-renewal/performanace/Default.aspx
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Post by 3cubdad on Sept 20, 2008 16:27:34 GMT -6
The use of the term "PINEWOOD" is not meant to dictate that it has to be a PINE SPECIES of wood but rather that it has to be a SOFT WOOD SPECIES LIKE PINE. . . .we wanted to state that it had to be from a block out of a BSA kit but that was over ridden. . . . Believe me, after doing wood product research for several years and being involved in the sawing/milling of millions of board feet of various pine species each week, I know "Pine" in all of its varieties . . . The use of "PINEWOOD" is to avoid the use of extremely stiff/hard types of wood in the Novice and Limited Divisions. Hard woods/metals allow for greater precision in making axle holes and the reduction of the "non-tungsten" amount of car. It also prevents the use of very light weight woods (balsa) that allow for a lighter body percentage from the wood and more tungsten where it's fastest. It is quite common for people at ALL levels to use an alternate species. Not even all of the kits have used PINE all the time. From another forum: So, when I am checking the cars, I look to see if you have a soft wood(non-metal like) frame that is holding the axles instead of having the axles connected to a "specialized" frame structure. So the point about the axles being connected to wood is actually more important then the specific type of wood. Just for clarification, does this mean that pine, spruce, poplar and basswood ARE allowed for Limited class bodies? Steve 3CubDad (for what it's worth, based on the above reasoning, I would vote yes, but I'd like an "official" ruling if possible)
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Post by Mr. Slick on Sept 20, 2008 18:23:49 GMT -6
The official answer would have to be no. Only PINE is to be used. . . the problem we have is that this rule is difficult if not impossible to enforce due to the difficulty of determining the species of wood being used.
The idea for 2009 is to have the "Pure Stock" division where the a BSA supplied block has to be used. . . . the problem with this is the use of pine blocks from other suppliers like MaxV who gets blocks in by the pallet full and then does a full QC on each block to determine which ones are actually to spec. This ends up producing a more standard block then the BSA kits!
Anyway, let us not forget that when Lucky13 gets back from Lima we will need to see about ordering a second trophy.
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Post by FiRENZE on Sept 20, 2008 18:31:47 GMT -6
While attending the Bluegrass National, I noticed that some cars had wheel wells made of Balsa. Some other builders commented about cars being assembled from the pinewood from the BSA kit and Balsa wood. Perhaps the Stock car should be constructed only of Pinewood?
Firenze Derby SportsCars
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Post by ProQuest on Sept 20, 2008 18:38:04 GMT -6
In the immortal words of Warren Kalsow: LET THE DEBATE BEGIN!!!
First, some background:
As most of you know by now, the 2007 Limited rules did not limit the type of wood that could be used in any division, including the Limited Class. Off and on over the course of the 2007 season many of our members expressed their feelings that the Limited class is the division that should most closely replicate the Cub Scout rules, and as such, should require use of a Pine block. Further, this division already allows numerous variances from the BSA rules. The more we deviate from the BSA rules the less of a "Limited" class it becomes. As I recall, the rules committee (yes, Virginia, there is a rules committee) considered the input of the membership and based on the reasoning stated above changed the rule for the 2008 Limited division to require the use of a Pinewood. As Warren mentioned above the committee actually considered requiring that all Limited class cars be built with a pine block out of a BSA kit. That requirement was ultimately deemed too restrictive and abandoned so as to allow builders to use pine blocks from PineCar, Awana and Pine Pro Kits, and to buy pine blocks from MV or like suppliers.
The way I see it, there are two issues here.
The first one is: how should the current rule be interpreted? The second issue is whether the rule should be changed.
So, addressing the issues in the above order: How should the current rule requiring "Pinewood" be interpreted? Or to put it another way, does "Pinewood" mean Pine wood, or does "Pinewood" mean Pine wood, Bass wood, Poplar wood, Spruce wood, and any other "Soft" woods that are similar to Pine?
In my humble opinion, "Pinewood" means Pine wood, and not any other woods. It is critically important for the rules be clear and subject to as few "interpretations" as possible. If the collective view of the league is that the use of non-pine species should be allowed in the Limited class, then I believe a revision to the rule is warranted. Which brings me to the next issue:
Should the rule be changed? Again, the way I see it, we need a division that closely resembles a Cub Scout Pinewood Derby. Right now, the Limited Class is as close as we get. The more we expand the rules the less like a Scout race it becomes. My fear is that without a division that appears a lot like a Cub Scout race, new racers will be discouraged from getting involved.
Having said that, I would be in favor of allowing the use non-pine woods in the Limited division, only if we added a new "Pure Stock" division.
If we add a true "Pure Stock" division that required the use of Pine (just pine), then we could open the Limited class up a little more to allow those other woods that Warren mentioned. Unfortunately, there has been very little participation in the Novice class this year (I apologize to anyone whose toes I am stepping on here, but not saying it doesn't make it any less true). Based on input from our members, there is a huge interest in a true "Pure Stock" division that requires 4 3/8" wheel bases, prohibits the relocation of the wheelbase, prohibits washers and solid rod type axles, etc. We could replace the Novice with a Pure Stock class and open the Limited up to non-pine woods. Based on the feedback I am getting, that would is what the league membership really wants.
I've had my say. It's your turn.
Steve H.
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Post by 3cubdad on Sept 20, 2008 19:56:51 GMT -6
While attending the Bluegrass National, I noticed that some cars had wheel wells made of Balsa. Some other builders commented about cars being assembled from the pinewood from the BSA kit and Balsa wood. Perhaps the Stock car should be constructed only of Pinewood? Firenze Derby SportsCars Firenze, Those items fall under rule 3, 3. The car design may be enhanced by the addition of other stable materials such as plastic or metal. Any additions must be firmly attached and meet Car Size Requirements. Whether it's a plastic motor, a driver figure made out of zinc, (both of which are very common in scouts), or fairings made out of balsa, or balsa shapes on top of pine wedges, (like most of the HR66's), these are all common and allowable. I only WISH I had the wood working skills that you guys do! Steve F. 3CubDad
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Post by 3cubdad on Sept 20, 2008 20:03:46 GMT -6
In my humble opinion, "Pinewood" means Pine wood, and not any other woods. It is critically important for the rules be clear and subject to as few "interpretations" as possible. Steve, I agree that Pinewood = pine wood, and that's clearly what the rule says. I only asked because it kind of appeared that Warren was implying otherwise. Steve, I would like to go on record as wholeheartedly supporting this idea! I agree completely with your definition of a "Pure Stock" class and would love it. As you said, with a strict Pure Stock division, you could open the Limited class to any "wood", and also possibly consider eliminating the wheel base requirement in the Limited class. I mention this because there are a lot of groups, (a lot of scout groups included) that don't limit wheelbase. (mad Max's car is his scout car). In this way, almost anyone coming in would have a class they would feel that they could compete in. Regardless, of the changes in the Limited class, I would love a Pure Stock class. ok, who's next? Steve F. 3CubDad
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Post by Carolina Gravity Sports on Sept 20, 2008 20:28:54 GMT -6
You have my vote for a Pure Stock class.
The Pure Stock class is by far the most competitive and challenging class I race in. I guess that is why it is my favorite.
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Post by Slow Steve on Sept 20, 2008 20:55:51 GMT -6
Hey everybody, I'm back from out of town (I'm sure many have enjoyed the brief respite from my loquaciousness, although it looks like my rule-following ineptitude has stirred up a maelstrom of messiness re rules and the collective interpretation of such). After writing my post, I had a great conversation with Max and my daughter (who is 12 btw, old enough to understand why rules are important) about the fact that her car was in violation of the rules (my fault, not hers) due to the use of the basswood, and we talked about how she would feel if someone who didn't follow the rules had edged her out of a trophy in a race... of course she would not like that, and she was very understanding and in agreement that sending her trophy to TRJ was the right thing to do (no tears, no drama, very matter of fact). What a great opportunity to teach my kids a valuable lesson about sportsmanship, integrity, and doing the right thing! The proverbial glass truly is half full. After all the use of 1 gram wheels, aftermarket axles, etc. in our District and Council races (we beat 'em anyway ), we knew first hand the feeling of what it was like to have to race against people who didn't follow the rules, and I dare say the value of this whole episode has been a learning experience far more valueable to both of my kids than winning trophies ever could be. No matter what, the current Limited rules call for "Pinewood" so irregardless of intent that clearly means pine wood from a pine tree. I'd like to thank everyone who chimed in for their understanding of our situation, to Scott for his graciousness and to Bob/Lucky for your offer. I'd still like to send the trophy to TJR, so this can be as good a lesson to him as it has been for my kids. I don't want to see you guys go to the hassle of ordering a new one, please just let me know Scott's address via PM so I don't waste any more of anyone's time. Now... as for the rules debate/'09 situation/whatever, I'm good with whatever everybody wants to do, but with this talk about Pure Stock/Limited etc., my vote says the sooner whomever comprises the rules committee can decide on the '09 rules the better! I've got so many ideas to test for how to make cars go faster I'm chompin' at the bit to get back to building some new cars! But... I don't want to spend too much time on new builds until I know exactly what the rules are... I definitely don't want to relive this experience ever again. Steve B.
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