|
|
Post by Mr. Slick on Jun 21, 2014 22:04:19 GMT -6
We will be hosting a discussion of the rules for the 2015 season at 10am until Noon on Saturday, July 12th, at the Rosemount workshop. I hope to see lots of folk there. I'll also have a calendar to start getting races scheduled for next year. By default we roll everyone over to the same relative date. Warren PS. Sorry for being absent - I got sent out of town the day following the council race. I have the computers at home and will be getting the results put into the PDFs so they can get posted on the Northern Star Council website, www.NSBSA.org. |
|
|
|
Post by notsofast on Jun 22, 2014 8:50:20 GMT -6
.02 cents worth of advice from a newbie: I like the current rules. They allow enough modification that if a dad wants to be able to explain how to reduce friction to his son and then actually make mods to wheels and axles he can. The rules also allow for aftermarket parts to be used if desired. Every year we run stock BSA wheels and axles from the Scout Shop and my boy spent a lot of time at the drill press. We started the car back in NOV of last year because I wanted him to do the work and he has the attention span of any other 9 yr old. This also taught him patience as the car wasn't done in a few days. It also taught him to stick to the project. Because we were allowed to file, groove and polish he was able to use a variety of tools. He cut out our car in the vise with a handsaw and dremel tool. Precut bodies wouldn't allow him to use these tools.We ran bent axles which he bent with a hammer in the vise. Being able to make these types of mods and others allowed my boy to be able to use tools that he doesn't get to use every day.
We ran an extended wheelbase which allowed me to explain how we could get more weight to the rear and that it was more stable. We tuned our car on the kitchen table using a yard stick to make sure the rears didn't hit the center rail. This allowed me to show him the effect of narrowing the DFW side.
Yes, more restrictive rules would level the playing field.More restrictive rules also make it easier for an adult to spend less time with their son prepping for the race. My boy did well at Council and my point is that the rules allow even a hack crew like my boy and I to compete with little investment because we were willing to put in the time. Isn't that part of what the derby is about...dad's spending time with their kids.We may not qualify for Districts or Council next year but I know we'll spend a lot of time together again using fairly dangerous tools with adult supervision because the current rules allow us to do so. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by twistediron on Jun 22, 2014 9:05:08 GMT -6
I feel these rules are probably the best it the country . I have seen many sets of rules these are by far the best.The only real thing is clarification on some areas .
I had the opportunity to help with inspections and sign in this year we saw ALOT of illegal wheels that "some" had no real clue they were illegal, and most were well aware as they had spares.lol I will be in attendance at the meeting, Mike
Sent from my XT1080 using proboards
|
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Slick on Jun 22, 2014 20:11:01 GMT -6
One thing that will be on the discussion table is who is racing at the council race. It has been mentioned that some of the districts are VERY fast where other districts are not as fast. One idea that has been floated is to keep the top 3 from each rank for each district AND allow others who believe that they have a fast car and want to race, let them enter.
|
|
|
|
Post by cygnus on Jun 22, 2014 22:37:12 GMT -6
I won't be able to attend your July 12th meeting, so I'm going to give my input here.
I think the NSC Rules are some of the best in the country, but think there could be better clarification in some areas.
I'd like to see the rules clearly state that canted axles are allowed. That machined wheels and axles are allowed as long as they meet the specs outlined in the rules.
I would also like to see washers and slide guides allowed.
Regarding the council race itself, I'd like see a grand finals race added at the end of the day, where the top 3 in each rank would compete against each other and a council champion would be crowned. Award an additional 5 trophies for the top 5 overall. Our district does this and it makes for an exciting day of racing for the boys.
|
|
|
|
Post by notsofast on Jun 23, 2014 10:00:50 GMT -6
I like the clarification on the axles too. I remember having a bunch of questions about those issues. I think the rules should allow cars to be competitive without much added expense. If people want to spend the extra time prepping to make better wheels and axles better I think that's good time spent with the scout. Filing, grooving, sanding, polishing and bending don't require tools that aren't accessible at a Den or Pack workshop. A few nights ago we tried to true up some wheels with a makeshift setup and I'm finding that you can take a lot of material off, which makes them much lighter, and still be legal but it's hard to get them true. Maybe allow the machined wheels but set the legal diameter a little closer to stock BSA. This would allow people to buy machined wheels if they want yet the average guy wouldn't be competing against perfectly round AND much lighter wheels. If the rules specifically said "machined" wheels were allowed then more people would just buy race prepped wheels because it's nothing to just click the mouse and get the wheels polished too for a little extra jing. The same with the axles. If it specifically said "machined" axles were allowed people would just click click click for stainless or titanium, grooved, polished and even bent for DFW right from the internet. This would mean less effort is required to build a fast car. This may be exactly what is desired though. Just my opinion. |
|
|
|
Post by cygnus on Jun 23, 2014 21:23:44 GMT -6
One thing that will be on the discussion table is who is racing at the council race. It has been mentioned that some of the districts are VERY fast where other districts are not as fast. One idea that has been floated is to keep the top 3 from each rank for each district AND allow others who believe that they have a fast car and want to race, let them enter. I like it. The more the merrier. |
|
|
|
Post by notsofast on Jun 23, 2014 21:55:14 GMT -6
What if some of the regular fast guys from anywhere in the Council were willing to travel a short distance and give, say, a 1 hr presentation at a Pack meeting for any Pack that would want to have them out. It would be nice to share some of the awesome information that takes literally days to sort through and understand with the help of the fast guys on these forums. It would be easier to understand if someone was actually showing you how to polish axles and wheels and place weight then align. It doesn't have to be a total build step by step but just some general stuff. It could even be as simple as a standard powerpoint that was presented to each Pack that asked for help. It might be just enough to get some parents interested in looking further into it because it wouldn't seem like black magic anymore.
Cygnus, LightninBoy, twistediron and others have helped me immensely in a very short time to get ready for Council by being willing to explain specific details to me that many others seem to dance around. It gave me what I needed to understand the effects of different changes.
Mr.Slick could be the contact person for the Packs. He could send out the request for help from the Packs on this site and anyone that's available and was close enough to the Pack could volunteer to give the presentation. pwdracing could be on the start page of the powerpoint. Might be another way for the experienced builders to stay involved after their kids move out of Cub Scouts.
|
|
|
|
Post by cygnus on Jun 24, 2014 13:27:06 GMT -6
I like the clarification on the axles too. I remember having a bunch of questions about those issues. I think the rules should allow cars to be competitive without much added expense. If people want to spend the extra time prepping to make better wheels and axles better I think that's good time spent with the scout. Filing, grooving, sanding, polishing and bending don't require tools that aren't accessible at a Den or Pack workshop. A few nights ago we tried to true up some wheels with a makeshift setup and I'm finding that you can take a lot of material off, which makes them much lighter, and still be legal but it's hard to get them true. Maybe allow the machined wheels but set the legal diameter a little closer to stock BSA. This would allow people to buy machined wheels if they want yet the average guy wouldn't be competing against perfectly round AND much lighter wheels. If the rules specifically said "machined" wheels were allowed then more people would just buy race prepped wheels because it's nothing to just click the mouse and get the wheels polished too for a little extra jing. The same with the axles. If it specifically said "machined" axles were allowed people would just click click click for stainless or titanium, grooved, polished and even bent for DFW right from the internet. This would mean less effort is required to build a fast car. This may be exactly what is desired though. Just my opinion. Allowing aftermarket machined wheels and axles, peer and simple, levels the playing field for all. It’s a dilemma no matter how you look at it . . . Lightly machined parts can also be ordered race prepped, but it doubles the price. Shame on people that order race prepped wheels and axles! If the rules only allowed kit parts, then the advantage would go to the scout lucky enough to receive a kit with better molded wheels. If they disallowed aftermarket parts, then scouts with a machinist dad, grandpa, uncle, or neighbor and a lathe would have the advantage. By not clarifying in the rules that machined parts are allowed, then most will think they’re only allowed to use the parts that come in the kit. It’s not always easy to identify machined parts, especially axles, during check-in. We need rules that inspectors can easily enforce at check-in, because we don’t want a witch hunt. In my opinion, the thing that makes the NSC Rules the best, and what separates it from the rest, is that it DOES allow for state-of-art parts and cutting-edge building techniques. If they disallow the fun stuff, then we end up with the same-o "strict" boring rules that all the other councils are using. Aftermarket parts still need to be race prepped. If you ask my son, Zach, he will tell you how much work it takes to get them race ready and running fast. Here are some pics of him prepping parts for his car Pop Thorn.      |
|
|
|
Post by notsofast on Jun 29, 2014 17:27:08 GMT -6
I think as long as the inspectors interpret them the same way from Pack to District to Council I could be convinced pretty much any way would be good. I like them now but did need clarification myself on axle mods mostly because all the axles I have are oblong where the wheel rides and all measure less than .084" on the narrow prior to sanding and around .092" on the wide. We also had an 8-wheeled tank that I needed to make sure I could mount the center, non touching wheels solid to the body. The little axle press I have has an option of putting the axle in and pounding the head flat against the press. This centers the head onto the shaft and slightly tapers it too. The problem is the head face gets distorted and doesn't look like a BSA axle anymore. They actually run nice though. We're happy to be able to race with you guys and we only have experience at the scout level so take what I say with a grain of salt...maybe two.
|
|
|
|
Post by cygnus on Jul 17, 2014 4:48:27 GMT -6
Any big changes coming with the 2015 rules?
|
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Slick on Jul 17, 2014 14:50:09 GMT -6
yep, but no big surprises. Trying to get most of the suggestions incorporated.
|
|
|
|
Post by notsofast on Jul 18, 2014 15:08:27 GMT -6
I couldn't find the overall results of the Council race anywhere. Are they out yet? Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by cygnus on Jul 19, 2014 11:48:08 GMT -6
Yeah, where are the 2014 council race results? In the past they were posted on the council website 1-2 weeks after the race--tops. Here it is 6 weeks after and nothing has been posted. The council pinewood derby is a competition just like any other, and like box scores for H.S. football and baseball games getting printed in our local newspapers, we like seeing the council race results posted so that we can closely compare how our boys performed in their ranks as well as how they performed against other ranks. Warren, can look into who dropped the ball on this? Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Slick on Jul 22, 2014 22:34:15 GMT -6
I'm the one who is the missing link. It is just a matter of time and having the correct computers with me. I started taking the race computer with me to work thinking I will get some time for exporting the results.
Sorry.
|
|
