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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2012 21:32:15 GMT -6
Guys, I still think it would be so cool to actually run with BSA Kit and run with lead and kit axles. Running under these rules would allow fast Scout Racers to run in this class if they have a fast car.
I struggle with powder (graphite) vs. oil. I would go graphite and oil and separate them into two divisions.
Natually, racers, with less experience, will be at a slight disadvantage because there are racers that have wheels, out of the box, that have little or no runout.
I have only been racing since late 2010, but, I believe, historically the novice division, has been a struggle but, I believe Warren has connections to get some of these new racers to come in and join us!
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Post by ProQuest on Dec 15, 2012 22:48:15 GMT -6
Guys, I still think it would be so cool to actually run with BSA Kit and run with lead and kit axles. Running under these rules would allow fast Scout Racers to run in this class if they have a fast car. I struggle with powder (graphite) vs. oil. I would go graphite and oil and separate them into two divisions. Natually, racers, with less experience, will be at a slight disadvantage because there are racers that have wheels, out of the box, that have little or no runout. I have only been racing since late 2010, but, I believe, historically the novice division, has been a struggle but, I believe Warren has connections to get some of these new racers to come in and join us! +1 The only thing I would take exception to is requiring the use of lead. While lead is probably the most common material used for weighting pinewood derby cars at the Scout level, several other materials are readily available and not uncommon, including steel, zinc, carbide, coins, tungsten, and there are probably others as well. You don't have to spend a whole bunch of money on any of these weights and you certainly do not have to be an experienced builder to use them. Now that I think of it, I don't believe that I have ever seen a set of rules that limited the type of material a builder could use to weight a pinewood derby car, and imho that is an area that should probably be left to the builder's individual preference. Having said all that. I personally like building with lead and would not be disappointed if the rule in the "BSA" class restricted weighting material to lead only. Just my 2 cents. ProQuest
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Post by Mr. Slick on Dec 16, 2012 0:01:13 GMT -6
Lead(Pb) will NEVER be a required part at PwdRacing.
It is banned in children's toys and most other places.
I would prefer it if Lead(Pb) were NOT used in ANY of the cars we handle.
I personally have elevated Lead(Pb) and am not willing to have anyone else be exposed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 1:26:14 GMT -6
I totally get it. Us guys know how to handle it. One would beg to ask: How many scouts cars use tungsten? The answer is "very low" from the regions that I have held workshops and conducted pack/council races.
Tungsten is rare in the South. Maybe the north is different! Heck, I just want to start racing again!
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Post by B.S.B. Racing on Dec 16, 2012 16:40:18 GMT -6
I never tried it, but I would assume if you took your finished car and weighed it without the weight in it, you could then use the required amount of BB's. Mix them in with some epoxy glue and spread them into the weight pockets. Maybe leave it .5 ounce light for a heavy washer or two to be moved around under the car for best weight placement.
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Post by Mr. Slick on Dec 17, 2012 13:16:53 GMT -6
Two 3/4" holes side by side - behind and/or in front of rear axle and fill with pennies and a little wood glue. very effective and 1 penny ~ .1 oz.
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Post by X-Ring Racing on Dec 18, 2012 11:56:22 GMT -6
Not to be negative here, but even in scout races where oil is allowed "like us up here in the Cleveland Council", graphite prevails. My son was the only one in our pack that ran oil....ever! It 's not until you move onto council, etc, until you run into more oil cars. And that comes mostly from league racing influence in our area. Graphite still prevails. If graphite is not allowed, you'll truly never have a "novice scout class" imo.
Like others have mentioned, or hinted ... it's hard to get new racers attracted even with a novice class. I could be wrong, but I'll go out on a limb and guess that the ones that make it to leagues ( my son and myself, among-st others) make it there because we really get bitten by the bug, and probably what helps us get bitten is doing well in the pack races. Most parents lose interest after the pack race is over.
On a side note, I've never seen mention of anyone handing out flyers at pack races to promote league racing. If new racers are to be attracted, this should help. Maybe volunteers can be recruited in different area's to hand out flyers?
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Post by ProQuest on Dec 19, 2012 0:37:36 GMT -6
To me the purpose of the "BSA" class would be two fold.
First, and foremost, it would create a division for current/veteran league racers that would put everyone on equal footing, and thereby be a better test of builder skill. It would take away, or at de-emphasize, the advantage that some builders might have due to superior financial resources or access to high tech equipment, such as lathes and mills. This was the idea behind the Spec-Tuner class. So, you might be wondering why I believe the "BSA" class would succeed where the Spec-Turner class failed. I thought you would never ask. I truly believe that Spec-Tuner failed because it is was overly restrictive. Everyone had to use the same chassis, and there was virtually NOTHING a builder could do to his car, other than paint it, that would distinguish it visually from any other car in the division. In my experience, it simply was not fun to build a Spec-Tuner car. The most fun I have in building cars is to cut and shape the chassis. When I am done, before stain or paint goes on, before I ever touch a wheel or axle, I step back and consider what I have created, and sometimes I feel a sense of pride and accomplishment. I never got that with a Spec-Tuner class build, and I'm guessing that more than a few others felt the same way.
A secondary purpose of the "BSA" class would be to have a class that is less intimidating to new league racers. IMHO, I don't think we need a separate "Rookie" division. It has been tried before and there is a reason that it was discontinued. There just wasn't enough interest. But that does not mean that there shouldn't be a division that is friendlier and more inviting to new league builders. A class that requires BSA wheels and axles, four wheels, no machining of wheels/axles, etc., would be exactly that. New racers might not be competitive at first, but at least they would not be scared off.
Just food for thought.
ProQuest
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Post by oldblueracer on Dec 19, 2012 22:29:35 GMT -6
I like the idea of having class break down, but here is a little ? does the car that makes you move up or down need to be the same car for that builder For example I ran a car that by some twist of fate ran great in 3 of the 6 runs but only ran 1 sub 3 I still consider myself a bit of a rookie in many of the classes Please remember that I do race a lot of times for the pure fun of running a car against anybody to see how it does and learn from my mistakes and improve upon my successful runs
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Post by Evolution on Dec 20, 2012 10:25:49 GMT -6
Blue,
That is why I liked the idea of win twice and move up, lose twice and move down a class. That way in case you have one of those really fast cars for some unexplained reason a couple months in a row, if it fell off you would move back down.
Is there a perfect way to classify a racer, no. There are lots of great ideas coming out in this thread for sure. I am sure Mr. Slick will be announcing some exciting special divisions and maybe making some tweeks to other things like how points are earned, ect in the coming days. I think 2013 is going to be a lot of fun as I have been speaking with a lot of racers that are excited for the season.
I know once I finish getting the new shop completely setup, I am looking forward to building a 454 or two. I still haven't built one, but they sure look like a blast.
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Post by K-Racing on Jan 20, 2013 10:22:04 GMT -6
Blue, That is why I liked the idea of win twice and move up, lose twice and move down a class. That way in case you have one of those really fast cars for some unexplained reason a couple months in a row, if it fell off you would move back down. Is there a perfect way to classify a racer, no. There are lots of great ideas coming out in this thread for sure. I am sure Mr. Slick will be announcing some exciting special divisions and maybe making some tweeks to other things like how points are earned, ect in the coming days. I think 2013 is going to be a lot of fun as I have been speaking with a lot of racers that are excited for the season. I know once I finish getting the new shop completely setup, I am looking forward to building a 454 or two. I still haven't built one, but they sure look like a blast. I've been floating around this forum for a lil bit. I like what is being discussed here. I'd like to get my feet wet and start racing. But when I see the times of a Pure Stock as of right now I can't even compete. At least on my track I cant, I've built a couple and the best I can do is 2.95 area of time. (I have a 4 lane, 42' Best Track with Champ Timer) So, I'd like to see a sub-division or what is being said about if you win twice you move up or loss twice you move down. But I do believe that there needs to be a class for newbies. Discussion on type of weight-- I'm not sure about other areas but in my district (War Eagle) and Council (Mid-America) I see alot of cars running tungsten. Hobby Lobby, Scout Offices, etc carry it on hand. We can't run oil, graphite only. I have my track out, and I'm curtaintly building a few scout cars for Pack, So I'm hoping to make the deadline for February race, if not I'll be there in March. Still have a lot to learn about using oil. And trust me I'm practicing.
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Post by Evolution on Jan 20, 2013 11:11:32 GMT -6
I would not worry about your times yet as the times of all tracks are different. The only way to know for sure how your cars will do is to send a few in and get base line for the difference between the two tracks.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 12:51:50 GMT -6
Rakibby, As Evo has remarked, don't worry about the times. When I was living in Chattanooga, I had the same track set-up as you have and my times were about 0.06 seconds slower than the PWDR track. Just use the offset in times between the two tracks and you will be fine.
You have the most important thing: track and timer. Sometimes, it takes a racer a few months to be competitive. Sometimes a racer can be right up with the fastest racers right away.
Pro racing is fun and addictive! Getting to know your fellow racers will help because they will give you suggestions.
Most of what you need to be competitive is already in the forum posts so look carefully, leverage the knowledge base and go for it!
Thanks! Murph
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Post by K-Racing on Jan 21, 2013 7:08:34 GMT -6
thanks guys, Its discouraging to see the wicked times these guys are getting with these Pure Stock cars. I'm about 0.120 slower then the fastest car. ill definitely build a car and send it in. I do have to assume since I have to put together and tear down my track so often my times will be slower. I guess ill find out soon enough. Oil is my learning curve problem right now. figuring out what works best for me. I have been reading alot in here and taking A LOT of notes.
Sent from somewhere in the cornfields of middle earth
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Post by Evolution on Jan 21, 2013 11:32:35 GMT -6
I had the exact same thoughts when I started some years ago. I didn't have room to setup a 42 ft track so the times wouldn't match up. I finally did mail some cars in after thinking about it for a while. I figured that I would just get a baseline time for my cars. I quickly learned that no two track are exactly alike. I just used the difference in track time to figure out what my car would run.
I also figured out that I didn't need to beat anyone on the track, but instead I worked on beating my own times. I figured that as long as I kept improving I would catch up to the fast guys and someday be able to beat them. It didn't take to long to catch up to the fast guys, but beating them is always a challenge! There are lots of great racers and most are willing to share what works for them. Most of us know a few ways to find speed, but most of us know more why to lose it.
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