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Post by Slow Steve on Jun 7, 2008 13:24:21 GMT -6
Hello everyone! My name is Steve and my son Max and I are brand new to Pinewood Derby as of about 12 weeks ago (although you could say I have 37 years of car building experience, since I did build a car back in '71 when I was in Cub Scouts, but on race day it didn't not make it to the end of the track so I'm not going to count that on my resume!). My son Max is a Tiger Cub and we had the BEST time building our first car this year (my wife would probably say I had a little too much fun helping to build our car, but that's another story...) and we were fortunate enough to win our Pack race and qualify for both our District and Council race. What a BLAST! When our cub season ended last weekend, we (at least Dad) couldn't help but feel a little bummed out that the fun had to end until next year. I had read about proxy racing, but quite honestly that looked pretty intimidating since the cars are all so insanely fast and I figured we likely would not be remotely competitive (my hat is off to all of you builders, the times your cars are capable of running are nothing short of incredible!). Plus, half of the excitement for us was the whole live racing experience, being able to meet other Pinewood enthusiasts and share camaraderie and information and ideas on how to improve our building skills. But... earlier this week another dad from our Den told me that the PDR Racing league races here in the Twin Cities, and let me tell you, I got sooooooooo Stoked! So count Max and I (and Max's Cub Scout car) in for the June Race (I already sent Warren a PM), and I look forward to meeting any of you who will physically attend next Saturday! I did buy another pine block on my way home last night, and I'm going to try to build a "Stock" class car for the next weeks race (I cut it out this morning and am sanding it now, so hopefully it will be finished by next Saturday). I can tell from the pictures of the cars that run in the "Stock" class that most everyone runs "lightened" wheels, and I have ordered a set of 1 gram wheels. All else being equal, do any of you know much faster a car will run using lightened BSA wheels versus stock BSA wheels on the PWD Racing track? Is there any particular type of axle that works best with these wheels? My only experience thus far is with out of the box BSA wheels and Nails (which I sanded/filed/etc.). Also, I will be able to test run the new car on a 40" MicroWizard aluminum Freedom track to try to fine tune it before the race. Do any of you know how the times on this type of track compare to times on a Best track like the one PWD Racing uses? The Best track looks in pictures like it has a steeper ramp and a more radical curve section; does this steeper slope make it faster? I'm hoping so, because Max's Cub Car will NEVER run anywhere NEAR 3 seconds... lol! I see that virtually all of the "Limited" division cars running a short wheelbase and un-lightened wheels run under 3.0 seconds... you guys truly are extremely talented builders. I am in awe! Anyway, I very much look forward to meeting some and learning from all of you! Steve
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Post by ProQuest on Jun 7, 2008 15:27:35 GMT -6
Slow Steve:
From one Steve with son named Max, to another Steve with a son named Max, greetings and welcome to PWDRacing. I began proxy racing a little over a year ago, and not only am I having a blast, my cars have gotten way faster. Yours will too.
It is really hard to compare any two tracks, even two that are identical can vary significantly. The way they are set up, the temperature and humidity, start gate and finish line placement, type of starting devise used, etc. can all affect the times. Then when you compare two different tracks the number of variables increases even more. The top pure stock cars that run at WIRL where they use a 40' Freedom track, are turning around 2.91s, as compared to 2.95-6s here at PWDRacing. But please don't be intimidated by the times. The only way to know for sure how your cars stack up is to send them in (which you are doing), and compare the results from your league race to your times at home. Then you will have a baseline by which to measure your progress. I promise you this -- race here and you will get faster. There are tons of fast builders here who love to share what they know. If you have a question, just ask.
Again, welcome!!! I look forward to seeing you and Max at the races.
Steve
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Post by Lucky 13 on Jun 7, 2008 21:06:21 GMT -6
Steve and Max, Welcome to PWDRacing !! If there is anything we can help you out with when you're building your new car, just ask !! I have to admit, I'm a little jealous, you get to attend the proxy races live !! How cool is that !! Watch Warren though, he'll put you to work ;D !! Good luck in the upcoming race and again, Welcome to PWDR !!
Lucky 13
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Post by Slow Steve on Jun 8, 2008 8:58:51 GMT -6
Thank you for the warm welcome guys! (ProQuest Steve, Max says "tell him his son has a cool name!" ;D) It is so cool to be able to communicate with and learn from folks like you who are passionate about Pinewood Derby... I dont' feel like such a mutant any more! (regardless of what my wife says ) What I personally have loved about our Pinewood journey so far is the intellectual challenge associated with trying to figure out how to make a block of wood, four (lousy) nails and four cheezy plastic wheels (referring to the stock BSA kit) go fast down a track. The number of permutations/variables/options available to choose from, be they in design, materials, setup, etc. is simply mind boggling... but that's what makes it so FUN!!! What I really look forward to in the future is learning from all of you; it is so nice to see folks willing to share their knowledge with rookies like us to help us get up to speed. I am confident that over time with the help of many we will learn to build a car that can be competitive, and I am more than happy to share my knowledge and perspectives with anyone who is interested. Thanks again for welcoming Max and I to PWD Racing! Steve B
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Post by sappingtonr on Jun 8, 2008 9:13:45 GMT -6
Greetings Slow Steve, nice opening post you made. You had asked about 1 gm wheels vs. full weight BSA. I'm not an engineer or mathematician so I can't give you the exact delta. But, in my experience, you should be able to shave at minimum of .06 to maybe .10 per heat (depending upon set-up). What are your current district rules and under what PWD class does your existing car fall? is it an extended WB with full weight BSA? if so, then you would qualify for Novice, If 4 1/2 " WB and FWBSA then you would be in "limited". The great thing about PWDR is that there is a class for just about any configuration. Like you, we discovered proxy racing by chance. We won our pack the first 2 years but did poorly at district. After proxy racing for about 4 months we learned so many "secrets" and met so many nice helpful builders, that we were able to three-peat our pack and take 5th in district (out of 400 cars) which is a VERY competitive district. Proquest is right: If you have the desire to get even faster, you are definitely at the right place. So, welcome to the league, and to the underworld of wood car racing
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Post by Slow Steve on Jun 8, 2008 10:42:00 GMT -6
Sappington, Max's Cub Scout Car would fall in the Novice Catagory; our Pack/District/Council rules allow for an extended wheel base and allow only lightly sanded full-weight wheels and axles from the kit (our axles are awful, but the best I could do with the poor quality nails provided). I had no idea that lightened wheels offer that much of an advantage. At our Council Race, out of 212 cars that raced, approximately 25 - 30 cars were initially disqualified at the inspection for having illegal/lightened wheels (most appeared to be ~1 gram wheels as most had the entire interior sidewall and inner tread lathed out). The DQ'd cars were given a choice to either run as they were but their times would not be official and they would not be eligible for any of the trophies, or they could pull the wheels off and use substitute legal wheels (which the inspector provided if they did not have other wheels with them). I was pretty appalled at what I witnessed in the inspection line; we saw several dads/sons who offered their car for inspection, had it rejected for having illegal wheels, and they instantly whipped out either backup wheels or an entire backup car. Others claimed "this is how the wheels came in the box" (as if the Pinewood Fairy tossed in $30 or $40 aftermarket wheels into their $3.00 BSA Pinewood Derby kit). It was obvious they knew they were cheating, and they must have figured if they got caught they would be prepared with a legal backup car. I'd imagine that given how many people tried to sneak illegal wheels past the inspector, there were probably an even greater number who used aftermarket/machined axles. I drilled "viewing ports" underneath Max's car allowing the pointy tips of the nails to be visible so the inspector could verify that we used the nails for axles. We did this because a letter was sent out to all racers who qualified for the Council race that said "the ends of the nails must be visible", and I interpreted this to mean that the pointy end, not the head, must be visible. When we were standing in the inspection line, I related to some of the other dads in line that we had difficulty with the last minute rule requiring the points of the nails to be visible and explaining that when we pulled our wheels/axles to drill the viewing port holes we really messed up our alignment. Everyone I spoke with told us that the rule meant the head of the nail must be visible, and several said they hoped that the pointy part of the nail was not inspected since they had machined axles. Oh well... so much for the Cub Scout values of honor, integrity, etc... Anyway, I started building the new car Friday night with an extended wheel base (since our Cub Scout rules allow for this I figured I'd stick with it). In retrospect, this means that the new car would have to race in either the Novice or Stock category (and in Stock I would think we would need to run lightened wheels). I did order a set of lightened wheels and machined axles via the internet, and I have several extra sets of stock BSA wheels in my basement which I can start sanding/prepping, so I guess I'll have a choice as to which class I could enter the new car. If the delta between 3.4 gram and 1 gram wheels is .06 - .1 second, I think I'll test running each set of wheels and see which set seems to offer the fastest compensated time. Thank you for your response and I look forward to seeing your car race in person next week. I'm really hoping we can soak up some speed through osmosis! ;D Steve B
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Post by sappingtonr on Jun 9, 2008 7:10:38 GMT -6
Interesting that so many were DQ'd. The packs that those scout cars came from must have been under a different set of rules It's great that you will be "live" next Saturday. I wish I could be there too. Good luck in whatever class you end up racing!
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Post by Mr. Slick on Jun 9, 2008 13:11:45 GMT -6
I can vouch for the use of lightened wheels in the packs within NorthernStar council. I can even vouch that some of the districts allowed them. . . . At one district race I helped at I did point it out to the race committee that there were lighten3ed wheels. Since the cars had been inspected and their district rules didn't expressly forbid it all that was done was to tell the parents/sons that they may be DQ'd at council since they are not allowed. I was informed that they were always allowed in the past at council and that it was none of my business (it was my first year helping out with their district race). . . . I also got the "I bought these at the Scout Store" from one of the moms. . . . golly gee, why can't they admit what they are doing! I will have to report that only 3 of the 8 cars with lightened wheels made it into the top 15 places(paces 1, 4 and 12?) so there are other things that are more important then the wheels. Welcome to the races and keep asking all of your questions. The people here like to help others out.
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