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Post by Lucky 13 on Apr 16, 2007 21:13:28 GMT -6
I almost broke the 3 second barrier this month with "Lucky". I know most of you have done this already, but, I haven't . It's just a personal goal I have, maybe next month !! ;D Wish me luck !!
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Post by builderjim on Apr 16, 2007 21:18:02 GMT -6
You don't need luck, Bob, You got skill! Maybe I can join you next month in the sub 3 catagory with my Limited as I expected this last month. OK Let Do this sub 3 thing and get it over with! ;D
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Post by Lucky 13 on Apr 16, 2007 21:31:13 GMT -6
Alright Jim, Let's go for it !! Maybe I can get that monkey off my back finally !!
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Post by ProQuest on Apr 16, 2007 22:19:00 GMT -6
After you guys do it, would you tell me how? I was hoping to improve on March's showing, but got slower instead of faster. Can't figure these little devils out. I guess it's time for me to try something new. See you in May. ProQuest/Steve H.
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Post by Lucky 13 on Apr 16, 2007 22:42:16 GMT -6
Trying to figure them out is most of the "fun" !! Looks like you still had a good showing this month !!
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Post by ProQuest on Apr 17, 2007 0:09:42 GMT -6
Hey Bob.
I agree. Figuring them out (and building them) is the fun part. I'm pleased with how "Bad Habit II" ran, its just that in the past she's been faster than my other Rookie "ProQuest I," but not this time. And to be honest, I'm out of ideas for how to go faster.
This may be a topic for a new thread, but I hear tons of builders say they have to "tune" their cars. I don't really understand what it means to tune a car. I build the darn thing and if its fast I race it, if its slow I trash it and start over. Take "Tabasco" my pro stock entry for example, I put tons of hours into her -- highly polished speed axles from MV, SS wheels from Derby Worxs, cog at 7/8", I could go on for pages. Should have run under 3.0 easily, but was closer to 3.1. If I knew how to "tune" I might be able to make some small adjustments and turn her into a real burner. Instead, when I get her back I'll probably remove the wheels and axles, cut the tungsten weights out, throw what's left away and try again. I have no idea how to tune a car. Can you or someone else share your expertise on how to tune a car? That may be a dumb question, but if I don't ask I'll never know. Sorry for such a long post, I guest, as we say in the mediation world, I'm venting my frustration. Thanks.
ProQuest/Steve H.
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Post by Lucky 13 on Apr 17, 2007 5:20:42 GMT -6
Steve, I may be wrong about this (someone jump in if I am) but, to really fine tune you need a practice track. This is really the only way to see the effects different changes due immediately (Changing wheel spacing, moving a weight, a slight axle turn, or a host of other things can make a huge difference). If not you can make changes, send the car in, and hope what you did helps (this is the method I currently use ;D). I can tell you that if you really want to compete in the pro-stock rank you need needle axles. There are people on this board that can help you more than me with tuning (I'm just your average builder). Hopefully they will chime in. I also think the track may have been a tad slower this month, don't send "Tabasco" to the junkyard yet.
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Post by builderjim on Apr 17, 2007 7:34:18 GMT -6
A test track helps with tuning but sometimes things just happen. Take the times for my Limited stocker from this month to last. Last month it was faster but all over the place, used the table top alignment method, so I found someone with a track in the area and went over to tune it in. I had thought I had a net gain of 0.04 sec. from this to last month but judging by the time for this month it looks like either the track was a bit slower or I was way off (doubtful). Tuning your car usually involves alignment and re-lube. An ever so slight turn of the axle will make sometimes a .02 sec. ddifference in how the car runs.
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Post by ProQuest on Apr 17, 2007 15:28:08 GMT -6
Bob and Jim: Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it. Its hard to imagine that such little changes as turning an axle could make such a huge difference, but I'm sure you are right. I guess the next step is a test track, and then a whole lot of trial and error. Truth is I have a 20' Best Track test track, that I bought over a year ago. Problem is I don't have anywhere to set it up. The Ms. has been very supportive of my derby obsession, but she has drawn the line at letting me set up a track in the living room (can't say I blame her) -- and the garage is neither large enough nor flat enough. I know, what I need is a bigger house -- that's the ticket. I wonder how the results from running on a 20' track would translate to a 42' track. Guess there is only one way to find out. Until I can figure out where to put a track, I'll be using Bob's "tuning" technique -- make a change, send in the car, and hope for the best. Bob and Jim, thanks again for your thoughts. ProQuest/Steve H.
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maxx
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Post by maxx on Apr 17, 2007 16:51:02 GMT -6
Hey Bob. I agree. Figuring them out (and building them) is the fun part. I'm pleased with how "Bad Habit II" ran, its just that in the past she's been faster than my other Rookie "ProQuest I," but not this time. And to be honest, I'm out of ideas for how to go faster. This may be a topic for a new thread, but I hear tons of builders say they have to "tune" their cars. I don't really understand what it means to tune a car. I build the darn thing and if its fast I race it, if its slow I trash it and start over. Take "Tabasco" my pro stock entry for example, I put tons of hours into her -- highly polished speed axles from MV, SS wheels from Derby Worxs, cog at 7/8", I could go on for pages. Should have run under 3.0 easily, but was closer to 3.1. If I knew how to "tune" I might be able to make some small adjustments and turn her into a real burner. Instead, when I get her back I'll probably remove the wheels and axles, cut the tungsten weights out, throw what's left away and try again. I have no idea how to tune a car. Can you or someone else share your expertise on how to tune a car? That may be a dumb question, but if I don't ask I'll never know. Sorry for such a long post, I guest, as we say in the mediation world, I'm venting my frustration. Thanks. ProQuest/Steve H. Hello Proquest, I had a huge reply written up for you this afternoon on my laptop at work until i lost my connection .So I will try again here from home First off Lucky and BJ are right about having a test track,it definitely makes determining whether or not the small changes you are making are for the better.It also helps you get back to a baseline quicker.With that being said it is defiantly not necessary for you to have a track.Before we got our track all of our aligning was done at the kitchen table with a 6' long melamine shelf.And the majority of our tuning is still done on the board,we just take the cars to the track to check for improvement. Technically speaking all the work that you and your son do on your cars is tuning,and from your success at the leagues so far whether you think so or not you are already pretty good at it ;D.What you are really searching for is a way to take your tuning to the next level . What I suggest you do is to let us know exactly what steps you are doing so that we can better share with you a few steps or maybe just some changes to what you are doing to help you get further faster.This last suggestion has ulterior motives,because Daniel and I are in the same boat you and Max are in .We would like to speed up our learning curve also.I can tell you that most of our tuning is done via the Stan Pope wax paper shim technique.We have recently started to try bending axles. From what I could see of Bad Habit II in the video it looked like you had her set up to ride the rail,and she seemed to be quite stable and happy there.What It did look like was that maybe the rear wheel was rubbing on the rail also.Do you build your cars with a narrower front end to allow the rear of the car to stay off the rail?This is technique that many builders use.You could also set the rear of the car to dog track a little in an effort to keep the rear of the car off the rail.Mind you these are observations based on what I think i saw in the video. I think your 20' ft track can help you quite a bit make sure you use it as much as is possible.As far as rail riding goes the general consensus seems to be as little steer as is necessary to keep the car on the rail and stable,with maybe a slight lean to a little more than a little less ;D.Hope some of this helps.And maybe now would be a good time to start that other thread . And just so you know Daniel wants that "Rookie" track record so bad that he can taste it,his words not mine,I did not know he was this competitive . Maxx
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Post by ProQuest on Apr 17, 2007 20:50:14 GMT -6
Thanks Maxx:
First, to Daniel I say -- that is what records are for -- to be broken. It looks like our sons may have quite a rivalry brewing though, since my son, Maxwell (Max for short)(age 11) has no intention of giving the record up (if he can help it). But based on the improvement "Lich" has made every month since we first went head to head at WIRL in February, I'm guessing ProQuest's record won't stand for long.
As for Bad Habit, she's not meant to be a rail rider. Similar to you, I use the kitchen butcher block island to test alignment, and on a 5' 7" length she is dead on straight. It never occurred to me that the rear wheels should be further apart than the front. I'll try it. I've never intentionally built a rail rider. Up to now I've always tried to make them go straight. I use a high precision German made miniature drill press to drill the axle holes, and about half the time I am successful. "ProQuest I" also tracks straight. On the other hand, my Pro Stock entry, "Tabasco," has a moderate to strong pull toward the dominant front wheel (can't recall off hand which side that is on). I built her to go straight, but she just didn't. I ran her "as is" thinking maybe she was destined to be my first rail rider, but needless to say, the results were disappointing. I tried wax paper shims once and all I got was a hole that was so reamed out that the axle no longer fix, and I never could get the wheel shimmed enough to eliminate the wheel migration.
There really isn't much else to tell regarding what I'm doing. I basically, do what everyone does, polish the axles down to a very fine grit paper. Polish all contact surfaces including the wheel bore, try to make the body as light as possible so that I can add at least 3.5 oz of weight, and place the cog as close to 1" in front of the rear axles as possible.
Your suggestions sound good. I'll try the narrower front end and bending an axle. I'm open to all other suggestions.
Thanks to all for your responses.
ProQuest/Steve H.
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