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Post by CycRunner on Aug 30, 2010 0:12:57 GMT -6
I would like to see a show class introduced for the 2011 PWDR season - would anyone else support this? There could be awards on a monthly basis and/or one for the best show car of the year. WIRL has this class and has one award for the best car of the year. Any comments or thoughts anyone, and Lucky 13?
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Post by Sporty on Aug 30, 2010 8:31:47 GMT -6
I like the idea, But I feel I would rather enjoy seeing a few different classes other than a show class added.
I was hoping for a more pure class, stock axles and stock wheel base, ect. But I also like the F.R.E.D race and speciality races that I would enjoy seeing more of or semi monthly.
I am not sure what Bob and others can all handle and how long they want to be there racing cars every month.
But I do like the idea of each class having a best of show catagory, a pic, certificate and honorable mention to me would be a good solution to nothing mentioned each month.
On the other hand, Payign $10 to enter you car for a chance at a trophy for best of show, does not seem to unfair to ask for and there is merit there. But then is there a new batch of rules forth this class ? or just like I mentioned before. Same division , car races and the best of show selected from that class for each class ?
So many build some pretty awesome looking cars each month. I just feel a honorable mention and picture of the car each month is merit enough.
I honestly do not like the overall builder ranking at all. I will not likely ever enter in all those classes and many can not afford to. But others like it and support that mention.
Hopefully my different views and thinking are not coming across abrasive. I just would like to see other tihngs more. But a consesus should be the ears and votes for this.
Ryan
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Post by Da Pine Racing on Aug 30, 2010 9:47:47 GMT -6
I like the idea, But I feel I would rather enjoy seeing a few different classes other than a show class added. I was hoping for a more pure class, stock axles and stock wheel base, ect. a pic, certificate and honorable mention to me would be a good solution to nothing mentioned each month. So many build some pretty awesome looking cars each month. I just feel a honorable mention and picture of the car each month is merit enough. I honestly do not like the overall builder ranking at all. I will not likely ever enter in all those classes and many can not afford to. But others like it and support that mention. Hopefully my different views and thinking are not coming across abrasive. I just would like to see other tihngs more. But a consesus should be the ears and votes for this. Ryan I appreciate and enjoy seeing the cars everyone builds, the craftsmanship and skills involved. (cycrunner builds some of the coolest cars out there) Looking back, I can't recall seeing a continuous, consistent or heavy interest in stand alone show classes. I do think the pictures PWDR takes of every car are top notch. I enjoy going to the builder pictures section and seeing every car that raced. Sporty, as far as hoping for a more pure class, stock......It's already here. PWDR has the most rule restrictive pure stock class I see in proxy world. PWDR rules are more restrictive than the local scouts. For me, If Pure Stock were to suddenly vanish If a builder chooses to build/race in every class, If a builder chooses not to build/race in every class, If overall builder awards are there, or not Trophy or no trophy If I had nowhere to race cars
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Post by Sporty on Aug 30, 2010 12:05:28 GMT -6
Our scout races, allow no cant and all 4 on the ground and no oil. Pwdr pure stock class is still less restrictive than our pack and council races.
I wish it wasn't, but I always felt pure stock, should mean pure stock. I feel that our current pure stock class is not in that ranking.
The most constroversial thinking and comment, I am now about to make is not directed and any one or any league.
But even though I am new to this league racing this year. Been blessed to come in doing well. I have seen by gandering over the past couple of years.
That I personally feel, Often more openess in some of the common classess. The rules seem to ever expand each year with allong more things to do be done to a car / class.
I'm not sure if this is due to many racers wanting it, or if its as simple as seeing the times drops on those divisions.
I feel the real growth in league rac ing can develop from a class, where not much is allowed to be done, the racing would be close and be more to the builder / tuning abilities.
Axles right from the box, a required min and max diameter on the wheels. maybe even no canting allowed or 4 on the ground or something along those lines. Not saying remove pure stock class.
But wouldn't the racing be neat to see very close racing. Even the less adaptive builders would feel more inclined to race. Perhaps drawing in more scout families into the league. Also could be less costly for those that might not be racing now, due to not being able to afford axles and great wheels, or even oil for that matter.
What I dislike even in scouting is kids just doing poorly and seeing them loose by two or three car lengths. Thats why I got involved in the workshops.
We put out everything we do and show them and then they can choose or decide if they want to put in the effort. I often bring those supplies and materials at a cost to me for them to use for free.
Ryan
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Post by Da Pine Racing on Aug 30, 2010 15:42:19 GMT -6
But wouldn't the racing be neat to see very close racing. Even the less adaptive builders would feel more inclined to race. Perhaps drawing in more scout families into the league. Also could be less costly for those that might not be racing now, due to not being able to afford axles and great wheels, or even oil for that matter. Ryan Just offering up my 0.20. In no way am I affiliated or a moderator of any racing league. I am a racer among a group of racers (some of them, I can't speak for everyone) that enjoy & crave getting as much speed out of a car, within the posted rules, of a race, on that day, on that track. I just want a level playing field to race at. Close racing is always neat, but in no way, shape or form do I want rules changed to slow someone down in order to bring them down to me in any particular class. It is up to me & only me to catch them. Hats off to LA, JE, B&B, Carolina, JAC, Proquest....just to name a few, (no offense to all builders left out of list, There are a ton of you out there) While racing in national racing leagues, and I get beat by 3 lengths (it happens often), I get over it. Cool discussion though "You don't make a weak man strong by making a strong man weak" Abe Lincoln
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Post by CycRunner on Aug 30, 2010 17:46:27 GMT -6
I don't recall seeing pictures of all the cars entered in each racing class each month. Lucky 13 posts the top 3 in each class, but we don't get to see all the cars. I think recognizing the best looking car in each class each month with a certificate would not be too much to ask, and would be appreciated. This would also stimulate builders to be more creative. The benefit of a separate "show class" is that the best looking designs are almost never race competitive!. The minute you get away from the thin low profile shapes you start to loose race time.
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Post by psycaz on Aug 30, 2010 18:00:34 GMT -6
But wouldn't the racing be neat to see very close racing. Even the less adaptive builders would feel more inclined to race. Perhaps drawing in more scout families into the league. Also could be less costly for those that might not be racing now, due to not being able to afford axles and great wheels, or even oil for that matter. Ryan Just offering up my 0.20. In no way am I affiliated or a moderator of any racing league. I am a racer among a group of racers (some of them, I can't speak for everyone) that enjoy & crave getting as much speed out of a car, within the posted rules, of a race, on that day, on that track. I just want a level playing field to race at. Close racing is always neat, but in no way, shape or form do I want rules changed to slow someone down in order to bring them down to me in any particular class. It is up to me & only me to catch them. Hats off to LA, JE, B&B, Carolina, JAC, Proquest....just to name a few, (no offense to all builders left out of list, There are a ton of you out there) While racing in national racing leagues, and I get beat by 3 lengths (it happens often), I get over it. Cool discussion though "You don't make a weak man strong by making a strong man weak" Abe Lincoln What I think Sporty is looking for/talking about with the pure class is a class for a pure scout car. No stainless axles, no oil, maybe lead only, must have/use slots, things of that nature. Something that any/most scouting families could just pick up their car and bring it to race and have a chance of being competitive. Something to go back to the roots of the sport so to speak. Not saying that they couldn't race their cars now - it's just that with the innovations of the last year, graphite isn't competitive anymore - at least from what I've seen. Something similar to what WIPR did with their Patriot Race - everyone used the same basic car and it was all builder to get the most out of it.
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Post by Lucky 13 on Aug 30, 2010 20:38:12 GMT -6
Thanks for the great discussion everyone. I appreciate the suggestions and ideas being brought up. Usually we wait until late September/October to start discussing changes for the following year, but since it has been brought up, let's jump into it !! I'm going to try to address everything that has been brought up, if I miss something, sorry, just ask it again.
- Show class. If there is enough interest in a show class, I'm willing to entertain the idea. If done, I would run it very similar to WIRL. For a flat cost a racer could send their car in and I would take several photographs of it. All cars would have to be entered by the November race. In November, I would post the pictures of the entered cars and allow the racers to vote on the winner for the year. The winner/runner-up would receive a plaque/trophy.
- Specialty Divisions. The Specialty Divisions were something that PWDRacing.com use to do on a regular basis and it is something I would like to get back into for the 2011 season. Look for it to return next year.
- Monthly Trophies or payouts/free entries. To be blunt and honest. It can't and won't happen unless the participation at PWDRacing.com increases significantly or we raise entry fee costs to around $20+ per car !! With the overhead of the building, Internet, electric, water, maintenance, etc...breaking even with the car numbers we are receiving isn't even happening. Entry fees are only $10 per car, which is dirt cheap for everything you get for that amount of money. I wouldn't count on this one happening anytime soon, but I do have a few other ideas I'm entertaining.
All the cars that are raced at PWDRacing.com are photographed and the pictures are posted in the "Builders Photos" section. The Top 3 are featured in the designated thread for each division each month, but all the cars are given recognition by being photographed and posted for everyone to see.
- Something new for 2011. I wasn't going to bring this up yet, but I think I need to. Starting in 2011 PWDRacing.com might be adding a new class...Spec/Tuner Division. The "Military Race" at WIPR was actually a test run of the division that me and Andy conjured up. The details for the division will come later, but I can tell you that it will require everyone in the division to use the same body, same wheels, same axles, graphite and lead for weight. Basically, it will come down to who is the best tuner. Each year the division will change (different body, wheels, axles, etc..). I am still working out the rules and details and I hope to have everything decided by the end of October.
- Pure Stock. Pure Stock at PWDRacing.com is named Pure Stock because it is the most restrictive division at PWDRacing.com. Comparing it to Scout Packs is hard to do. Every Pack is different and if we try to create a division to resemble every Scout Pack across the Nation, we will end up with 50 Divisions at PWDRacing.com. I understand the points being brought up and I have seen plenty of Scout Packs that have more restrictive rules than our Pure Stock Division, but on the other hand, I have seen plenty with way less restrictive rules. Earlier this year, I helped at Andy Lesters District race and I was absolutely shocked at how non-restrictive their rules where...1 gram wheels, 3 wheeled cars, extended wheelbase, non BSA axles, etc... Heck, legally you could have even run JE Holeshot wheels and they would have been legal. On another note as well, the more restrictive you get, the harder it becomes to "police" the cars. By allowing a little more freedom in our Pure Stock Division, it makes it a lot easier on the racer and the people in charge of enforcing the rules.
There are some other changes coming to PWDRacing.com in 2011 that will effect several divisions. I'm looking to announce them sometime in October as well.
Please feel free to post your ideas and suggestions...
Thanks Everyone,
Lucky 13
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Post by outlawracing on Aug 30, 2010 20:40:59 GMT -6
You guys have it all backwards. The racing will get even more lopsided with the more restrictive rules. It is WAY harder to build a 4 on the floor with no cant than the typical pure stock. I would venture to say that the margin of victory would be much worse. Should we have a little test and see?
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Post by Da Pine Racing on Aug 30, 2010 23:10:17 GMT -6
You guys have it all backwards. The racing will get even more lopsided with the more restrictive rules. It is WAY harder to build a 4 on the floor with no cant than the typical pure stock. I would venture to say that the margin of victory would be much worse. Should we have a little test and see? I totally agree, the builder that knows how to build a fast car can exploit their knowledge more so in a class with 30 pages of rules . If there was a potato class, a builder like LA could stick 4 axles and wheels in a 5oz potato and run sub 3s'. ............wait a minute...I think I'm on to something here............A Potato race??? Please,,,,no, never mind, it's late & I'm very tired. For me, Pure Stock is the most unfavorable car to build because it's the hardest car to build. I barely use a ruler when I build....when I can find one. Great response also Lucky 13, that cleared up a bunch of stuff.
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Post by 5KidsRacing on Aug 31, 2010 7:26:43 GMT -6
This is the best thread I have read all Summer! Da Pine you are spot on correct and nothing but class. Lucky you are top notch and the future of the PWDR is brighter because of you...
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Post by ProQuest on Aug 31, 2010 12:12:56 GMT -6
This is the best thread I have read all Summer! Da Pine you are spot on correct and nothing but class. Lucky you are top notch and the future of the PWDR is brighter because of you... Hey Dude's, Not sure why I'm chiming in except to say that I agree with Skidracing -- great/fun discussion. Also, hats off to Lucky -- very well stated reply. I couldn't have said it better myself. As for racing for cash prizes, I'm not a fan of the idea. Most of us race for fun. I do it for the camaraderie and competition (that probably sounds odd coming from a guy who hasn't proxy raced in over a year). When money is at stake some people get too competitive. Just my 2 cents. See you on the track (eventually) Later, ProQuest
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Post by CycRunner on Aug 31, 2010 12:57:36 GMT -6
Wow, What great responses! Looks like I started something here. Glad to see such interest and the ideas. As far as monthly awards go I think a simple certificate for the top three places, like what is done at WIRL would be great. And, no big expense either. I agree that it makes sense to keep the entry costs as low as possible to encourage more participation.
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Post by zeezop on Sept 1, 2010 6:35:12 GMT -6
What is the dominant lube?
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Post by CycRunner on Sept 3, 2010 17:28:48 GMT -6
What is the dominant lube? Good question about the lube. What innovations this past year are you referring to? I would think all the builders would have to respond to get an answer to the lube most are using. I started out using graphite - mostly from Max-Velocity, but I switched to Krytox 100 because it performs well and seems to last longer (more runs without relubing). And it sure is less messy! I know others prefer graphite but I don't know which is dominant. A comparative performance test would be quite difficult to do with the lube being the only variable. I guess if you run a lot of cars over time with each lube you may get meaningful data but I don't know if anyone has done that.
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