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Post by Papa Woody on Mar 19, 2007 14:49:30 GMT -6
As Warren and Scott was talking at the race ,about lengthening wheel base to no restriction as long as its within 7". Im up in the air and only 1, but this was a big issue at our local "pack"race . From what i hear the 4.5 wheel base can run faster but is harder to align than extended... In which changing limited rule to allow extended wheel base / Max. rookie of 25pts to compete in limited. Im just confused the reasoning behind possible change because the rookie level is for beginner level or scouts which in most races only allow the slots to be used so they still would be able to compete in limited once earning 25 pts. I think this kind of rule would take the "challenge" away which broadens the divisions,so why even have a rookie???
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Post by Bubba on Mar 19, 2007 16:09:33 GMT -6
Our Council and Pack rules allow for an extended wheelbase. This is a bit odd in that they are very restrictive in other areas where most Council and Pack rules are more liberal (i.e. we don't allow hub coning or beveling axle heads, and all 4 wheels must touch - for the entire surface, yet extended wheelbases are OK). Seems odd to me...
We (my boys and I) would like to see Limited allow for an extended wheelbase because it makes it that much easier for us to build a car (or modify an existing car) along the lines of our Pack rules and not be too much out of our league as we would in Pro-Stock or Modified.
It would also allow us to gradually pull the wheelbase back, and see if we can't achieve that level of performance where a shorter wheelbase is faster than an extended. So far our extendeds are faster, we're thinking we'll pull them back gradually as we mature with our alignment skills.
Regardless, I think it would be good to maintain a separate Rookie division, even if the rules are pretty similar (or even identical except for 25 pts. Max) between Rookie and Limited. It gives new people a chance to hop in and see how they enjoy it, without jumping in the "big pond" right away.
Our 2 cents...
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Post by Lucky 13 on Mar 19, 2007 20:12:44 GMT -6
The first thing to remember is the season has already started, no rule changes in midstream !!! I see nothing wrong with the classes the way they are. Rookie is suppose to be a door way for racers coming from any type of derby racing (awana,bsa, RR, etc.) and has liberal rules to accomodate them all. It's a class to get your feet wet in and move on. Limited (pure) stock is just that, as close to out of the box you can get. If you're coming out of rookie with an extended wheelbase, lightened wheel car, just send it into pro-stock. If you have a short wheelbase, stock wheel car you take it into the limited class. It's simple enough.
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Post by builderjim on Mar 19, 2007 21:03:54 GMT -6
I think the only rule change that was talked about was the extended wheel base which in my opinion doesn't make that much of a difference. I have had Modified cars when I first started not run as well as my limited car. Would I object to the rule change? Well, it would be nicer at the end of the season, but, if that means that a person, who has built a car with BSA wheels that are only modified which meets the limited rules currently would not have a place to run that car because of meeting the 25 point limitation in the rookie class, I say let them run in limited otherwise they might get very disappointed in the Pro-Stock Class running that same car no modification made to it.
The thing to remember is that in order to keep interest in the league we need to be able to accomodate as many as we can. Does the extended wheel base make that much of a difference? Why do the rules allow the moving of the wheelbase as long as it is 4 1/2" for the Limited division?
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Post by ProQuest on Mar 19, 2007 21:07:45 GMT -6
I agree with Lucky. Seems to me the main purpose of the rookie class is to let newbies race newbies. I watched the proxy races in one or more of the leagues for several years, wanting to take part but frankly, too intimidated to do it until the rookie divisions were created. My rookie cars won't be competitive in pro stock, and won't qualify for limited. No problem, I'll build new cars. To me that's the fun part. Just my opinion.
ProQuest/Steve H.
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Post by Lucky 13 on Mar 20, 2007 5:59:48 GMT -6
I see your point Jim , but, what's next ? What happens when the person running awana, pinecar,pinepro, etc.. wheels comes out of rookie? Do we change the rules to accommodate them also? The real issue to me seems to be the rookie 25 pt rule (something I don't agree with). A person should be able to race their car in rookie for the whole season(if they choose), this allows them plenty of time to get their feet wet and gives them plenty of time to make a decision on which class they will move into and time to build a new car for it. PWDRACING has a great turnout for rookie and it's going to force people to move out fast, and this is where the problems at !! I say let them race all year in rookie, learn, learn ,learn, then move up. Rookie is the only class were someone may possibly be forced to build a new car (or do a major modification to the current one) during mid-season!!
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Post by Mr. Slick on Mar 20, 2007 7:07:09 GMT -6
My main concern is losing builders(mostly youth) when they max out the rookie division and "HAVE" to build another car to meet the Limited division specs. The idea of "having to leave rookie after 25 points" was to eliminate the top builders from earning all of the points in that division and to allow for the true rookies to have as much success as possible. The idea for allowing extended wheelbase into the limited division is to allow for the novice to continue to race their car in the Limited division. I'm thinking that maybe we should "strongly encourage" moving to limited for builders that have times that are 'somewhat competitive' with the times in the limited division. Anyone want to propose a method of doing that? It would sort of be like having your softball team "bumped" to the next level because you won too often! The graduating rookies who are youth could be encouraged by providing a new kit. I'm thinking next year we may need to do like Lima and have age divisions for the builders along with car divisions. or is this all some sort of paranoia on my part? ;D
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Post by Bubba on Mar 20, 2007 9:08:29 GMT -6
A couple of thoughts:
For a newly formed/forming league I would think that a limited (pun intended) number of rule changes during the inaugural year would not be out of line... not to be sought out or undertaken lightly, but not strictly prohibited either. This would especially be true if you found that a particular rule was resulting in consequences that you had not intended. I would also think you would have a bit more leeway in addressing the Rookie and Limited rules (esp. Rookie), as many of the participants there are just getting their feet wet also.
If you do change a rule, in communicating that change make sure you take the opportunity to reinforce the principles and purpose of the league and show how that change fits with your overall intent. If you think the Rookie point total is too low and ushers the true "rookies" into the next level too quickly, explain that as your reasoning for the change. If you believe the Limited class rules exclude too many typical "boy builds", explain that also.
For us narrowly, we have our 25 points after 2 months (although Ballerina and the orange car that shall remain nameless show that we have a lot left to learn). Since we typically build extendeds for our BSA races, at this point we would end up in Pro-Stock (just need to buy some lighter shoes...).
I think the Limited rules "as is" will exclude a number of other boys who typically run extendeds. Just not sure what percentage of the population that you are looking to have joing your leagues that would affect.
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Post by Lucky 13 on Mar 20, 2007 11:42:15 GMT -6
Why are we trying to treat the limited division like it's a rookie class ?? The intent of the rookie division was to get people involved by having a "run what ya' brung" class. The limited division was not based on those same principles, it was based on trying to keep the build to it's purest form, which is why other leagues call it pure stock. I'll say it again, the real problem here is the 25 pts and your out rule. Go Bubba Go is a perfect example of why it doesn't work, 2 months and he's almost out? ? There is no reason a new racer shouldn't be allowed to stay in rookie all year. This gives them time to "learn the game". We don't force Fred to quit racing because he's won Mod 3 months in a row, so why do we force the younger less experienced builders to move up when we know they may not be ready ?? I say if we change any rule it should be the 25 pt rule. The idea of having multiple divisions(pee-wee, youth, etc..) within a class is great in theory, but, even WIRL has went away from that. That is a lot to keep up with.
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Post by builderjim on Mar 20, 2007 12:10:55 GMT -6
I almost would tend to agree with Lucky13 on the 25 point thing. Because of the great response this league has in even the young age of it, there very well could be +25 racers in the rookie division in any given month. This would mean that the top guy would immediately have to convert their car before the next month in order to run it or build a new car htat would meet the other qualifications. Maybe a time period system, say 3-6 months, rather than a maximum point system would be the better answer. I don't necessarily have a problem with the lengthening of the wheelbase but the other leagues do not allow this in their "Pure Stock" divisions. What if a person wanted to run in all 3 leagues with that same car, provided the dates aligned corrrectly? What then? Jim
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Post by Bubba on Mar 20, 2007 13:53:15 GMT -6
Whether it be within Rookie or elsewhere, I think that it is a good idea to let folks have several months worth of "run what you brung". Bear in mind that 2-3 months is really only 2-3 outings. We stepped our toe in the water in February with 1 entry. The older boy had a ball, and in March we sent 2 more Rookies and a modified (we won't discuss the last one ). For the Rookie class, we sent 3 cars in March. With 14 entries in the Rookie field, we ended up with 12 points (DK), 10 (Blue Lightning(TB)) and 4 (Ballerina) = 26 points. Punched our whole card in 1 month Either way you take it, it's OK with us and we're having some fun. But we would like 1 or 2 more tries at ProQuest and Lucky13 with our "run what you brung" cars before we head off to the "big show". LOL Just kidding, but we do like having the chance to play (at least for a little while) in a category that allows our typical BSA builds to be in the ballpark...
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Post by builderjim on Mar 20, 2007 14:01:41 GMT -6
Bubba,
There is a way you can run one more month. A builder will only recieve Builder points for their top placing car not fr all cars. According to the spreadsheet I show you having only a total of 18 Rookie builder points. Each Car recieves points also individually and are ranked as such in each division.
Jim
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Post by Bubba on Mar 20, 2007 14:36:34 GMT -6
...a builder will only receive Builder points for their top placing car not for all cars... Jim Didn't realize that (if I keep talking long enough you'll find out all kinds of thing I don't know ;D). Wouldn't mind seeing a little bigger number than 25, though. ProQuest is more than halfway there with one car (albeit a very nice one) and one outing. Might have to rethink our Donkey Kong plans for April
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Post by kayjon on Mar 20, 2007 17:12:38 GMT -6
Hey guys, Just a thought on the rookie points program. I grew up a bicycle racer and we had a beginner class that was there to get you feet wet and get started, however we did not want any one to stay in that division too long and become a trophy collector and discourage other new racers by becoming intimidated to start out racing themselves. We limited it to 5 wins no matter how long it took to achieve them. This way the top riders in that division could enjoy some success for a given time before "cycling out" to the next higher level and allowing others to take over the top spot in the beginner level. It worked for us.
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Post by buckeye on Mar 20, 2007 19:45:48 GMT -6
We don't force Fred to quit racing because he's won Mod 3 months in a row, Sometimes you have to make concessions for the "older" people. ;D After all what else would he do now that he is retried?
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