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Post by Mr. Slick on Aug 27, 2009 21:15:39 GMT -6
The guide book is now at a higher priority then the videos. I'm behind as usual. . . I got the nod earlier this week from the council activities comittee to do the radical change so I will be releasing the current version next week after reviewing it again with my co-chair, Slow Steve. I have a delivery date of "Distributed to all 24 districts before October round tables" so I have to get it out for greater review soon!
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Post by andylester on Aug 27, 2009 21:16:52 GMT -6
I hadn't seen any updates to this thread lately so I thought I would ask a few questions. I am now on the "District PWD Committee." I have this in quotes because it is really not official and it is only comprised of 3 people. The chairperson wants to condense the rules from last year, a whole 7 pages, into 1 or 2 pages. Apparently, 7 pages was too much information for a lot of people. I know. I looked at the 21 page handout from the Florida council. Very through and easy to read. So, I am trying to help out by referring them to our Pure Stock rules. My questions are these. How many of you have rules that allow slotting, raised fourth wheel, extended wheelbase, and canting? Except for extended wheelbase, our rules don't address the other possibilities. In fact, I have not seen anyone that has utilized them yet in our area. I just looked over last years district rules and it doesn't say anything about NOT being able to cant, slot, or raise the fourth wheel. So what I am looking for is opinion on allowing these techniques at the cub scout level. steepslope24 Our district race is kinda different than lots of others I have seen. We don't have a council race, but we should. Anyway... Our rules are not that long and I think they are online somewhere (Dan Beard Council - Trailblazer District) They allow extended wheelbase and lightened wheels. They say to use the stuff in the kit, but require wheels that say BSA and PINEWOOD DERBY on the outside. They also say to use axles that are BSA, but how the crap do you enforce that? There is no way that any of us are going to pull out axles to check the ends. Holes are ok but many still use slots. Other than that, the rules are pretty basic. NO oil for obvious reasons. I got to see lots of crazy stuff last year when I was checking in cars. WD40, Veggie oil, and who knows what else (thought I saw K-Y, but was not sure ) Our rules say you have to have 4 wheels, but all do not have to touch track. My boys cars, Orasymmetrical and Graphite XXX were both District Winner and Runner up, so that is what kind of car is allowed. Don't know if this helps, but that is what they do down here.
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Post by steepslope on Aug 27, 2009 21:30:24 GMT -6
I misused the word slotting and meant rail riding. I think my overall question is should I suggest, since they are reformatting the rules, that we specifically state that you are allowed 3 wheels touching, rail riding, and canting? Should this be addressed as not realistic for the young scout to comprehend and thus not utilize or should it be seen as the natural progression of PWD.
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Post by psycaz on Aug 27, 2009 21:43:08 GMT -6
Not sure how you would rule out railriding, honestly. It happens more often than not anyways. It's much harder to try to align a car to go straight than to turn it the way you want.
I would think you would stiffle creativity if you make the rules too strict.
Leave room for them to experiment as long as it doesn't require a lathe or cnc to do.
3-whelers, canting, railriding are easily obtainable with most household tools. We've seen it at checkin from families that have no idea as to what the stuff is, but the car turned out that way.
Honestly, we used to spend a TON of time helping parents/kids get that fourth wheel down - and that was only due to our pack rules, district always allowed a raised wheel. So much nicer to not have to worry about it anymore.
A lot of times, thinner bodies tend to have a wheel raise, ususally the right if I remember correctly for our pack. Had I think 4 or 5 this past season. It became a running joke among those of us helping with workshops and checkin.
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Post by andylester on Aug 27, 2009 21:44:12 GMT -6
I misused the word slotting and meant rail riding. I think my overall question is should I suggest, since they are reformatting the rules, that we specifically state that you are allowed 3 wheels touching, rail riding, and canting? Should this be addressed as not realistic for the young scout to comprehend and thus not utilize or should it be seen as the natural progression of PWD. Yes, yes, and yes. I think you lay out the rule and tell them what they cannot do, but them let them know what they can do. That way it gets them thinking, then answers some questions and there is no gray area. Black and white is easy, its the Gray area that gets parents MAD! But with that, you raise another issue. How many questions do you think you will get from parents like "what does cant mean?", "why 3 wheels", and stuff like that. It's a trade off and you just have to take the lesser of two evils. ;D
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Post by mwdpwdracing on Aug 27, 2009 22:25:10 GMT -6
Hello,
Our written rules are very difficult to interpret. However, a talk with the judge will reveal that we can use lightened, polished, and coned hub wheels. The BSA "rope" markings must be present. The wheel base must be about 4 1/4" (old wheel base). Three wheels on the road is OK, as well as canting. We can use any type of lubricant, but no relubes during the event.
Best regards, M. Dodson
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Post by Mr. Slick on Aug 27, 2009 22:31:07 GMT -6
just include the following link: www.PwdRacingLeague.comTell them this is a magical place that helps anyone do their best to build a winning car. Tell them that ALL questions get the very best answers.
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Post by steepslope on Aug 27, 2009 23:10:50 GMT -6
just include the following link: www.PwdRacingLeague.comTell them this is a magical place that helps anyone do their best to build a winning car. Tell them that ALL questions get the very best answers. Don't worry Warren. I have already linked this site and pure stock rules to try to explain what is possible. I will do my level best to get everyone in my district to consult this site for the very BEST advice on all things PWD.
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Post by Bubba on Aug 28, 2009 10:36:44 GMT -6
My questions are these. How many of you have rules that allow rail riding, raised fourth wheel, extended wheelbase, and canting? Except for extended wheelbase, our rules don't address the other possibilities. In fact, I have not seen anyone that has utilized them yet in our area. I just looked over last years district rules and it doesn't say anything about NOT being able to cant, slot, or raise the fourth wheel. So what I am looking for is opinion on allowing these techniques at the cub scout level. steepslope24 Here's my (slightly more than) two cents. First, the rules IMO need to pass 3 simple tests. They should be relatively: 1) Easy to understand 2) Easy to achieve 3) Easy to enforce I also tend to believe our rules should be just that - rules - not a combined rules / instruction manual for beginners on how-to-build a fast(er) car. Having said that, let me address your techniques one at a time: 1) Rail riding - our current Council rules do not address this, and I am not sure how to even go there in a rules document. My rule #3 - Easy to enforce - How do you enforce a restriction that requires (or prohibits) rail riding? However, I have seen particular facets of common rail riding setups addressed in a rules section, such as narrowing the block adjacent to the front axle(s). Some Packs/Councils disallow any type of narrowing / widening / modification, some specifically allow, and some don't mention it at all (which typically means modifications are allowed, depending on the way the rules are written). But I don't recall ever seeing anything in a rules section about rail riding in general, and I don't think it really belongs there. 2) Raised fourth wheel - our current Council rules disallow this, but I would allow for it. My rule #2 - Easy to achieve - for the majority of rookie (and even veteran) builders requiring "four on the floor" (esp. if you also require all four to be flat and meet the track surface the entire width - our current Council rules) is a major pain to achieve. The number of cars at our Council race that fail inspection at this point and have to be reworked "under the gun" has this rule under review for the upcoming season. The question to ponder here often becomes to what degree you allow that fourth wheel some "freedom" i.e. how far up off the track, does it have to remain vertical, can you embed it in the body, etc.? 3) Extended wheelbase - our current Council rules allow for this, but don't specifically mention wheelbase at all in the rules. The rules that come into play on wheelbase are the overall length restriction and the "no part of the car can extend beyond the starting pin" restriction. We allow, but don't specifically address, extending wheelbases. 4) Canting - our current Council rules prohibit this, but I would allow for it. Similar to the raised 4th wheel above - My rule #2 - Easy to achieve - for the majority of rookie (and even veteran) builders requiring the touching wheels to all be perfectly flat (esp. if you also require all four to be "on the floor" - our current Council rules) is a major pain to achieve. The number of cars at our Council race that fail inspection at this point also has this rule under review for the upcoming season. BTW my rule #3 - Easy to enforce - also comes into play here. How much effort do you put into obtaining a perfectly flat surface (mirror, machined steel, etc.) on which to lay the cars, and how do you confirm the wheels are perfectly flat (try to squeeze a piece of paper under the edge, shine a light and see if you can see any on the other side, etc...) Similar to "raised 4th wheel", the question to ponder here often becomes to what degree you allow some (or all) of the wheels to be canted? Gotta run at the moment, hope this helps. Bubba
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Post by steepslope on Aug 28, 2009 18:06:47 GMT -6
Thanks Bubba. Your explanations and opinions certainly conform to rule #1
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Post by ganggreen on Aug 28, 2009 20:50:11 GMT -6
I think the purestock rules used for the council race seemed pretty good.
I tried to call the host pack to confirm details, when my son broke his pack winning car and we had to rebuild. If anyone and their Cub were serious about competating, they would be asking these questions.
I think canting would be hard to eliminate, is it engineering, out those *&*%^% slots in the stock blocks! Hard to tell. Sometimes luck, sometimes some track experiance when your pack hosts the District race.
Chris and I had the luck and some good advice from another scout father who had been doing the derby for 7 years.
I think Pure Stock is fair and well documented and this site and others has tons of information availible on what can be done with in the rules.
For those packs saveing a few bucks and buying pinecar or other non BSA kits, go Limited. Or Purstock or limited with no wheel base restriction??!!
There were many at the last council race redrilling axles minutes before check in. This is a gross disadvantage to the packs that do not synce up their rules. This is exactly why I am planning on have an official workshop for the cubs in our pack, or an unofficaial invite den by den to my garage. So of the other Fathers have admitted to being power tool challenged and said they would appreciate a workshop to get the cars cut out.
I see no one from my pack at WIPR, but with Dave and Jamies boys in WIPR and they race our District, Chris has to step up his game. He has hopes for his Andy Lester body at Lima!! We will see.
I looked over the rules for Cleveland, Ohio Council Race. They were pretty loose rules at pack, my nephew lost to kid running razor wheels at PACK LEVEL!! They bost made dsitrict but basically District was a run off for the council race. And the coucil race was scheduled first, way out in advance, so the councils scheduled theirs and the pack scrambled to get ther races run to pick who advances, but some packs were so small, with 4 or 5 from each rank, most all the pack goes to district, anyway.
Anyway my 2 cents. Let the council and district get out front with rules and dates and the packs will do what they do. Most the time for lack of knowledge and in the name of consistency they will copy what the district gives them.
Kevin
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Post by 3cubdad on Oct 14, 2009 10:52:08 GMT -6
Warren,
Why are you set on "must use timed"? You stated that you didn't want anyone eliminated until racing was over? This means no "finals" racing?
I have found it is MUCH more difficult to explain to a young child why they "won" 3 out of 4 races, (young children understand the first car to the end wins), but don't get a trophy because their cumulative time minus the slowest time was greater than the cumulative time minus the slowest time of another car that never came in better than second in any of its races......
We find it much more intuitive to use GPRM, maximizing the number of opponents and lanes, and then sending the top seven cars to a quick finals. BTW- have run the analysis of multiple pack and districts, and I believe Stan over on DerbyTalk ran the results of 32 different district races and found that in using points, the results only changed some of the "bottom" ranked cars, but was fairer and more easily understood and eliminates things that are out of control like changes in environmental conditions over the course of the day or is someone "bumps" the track halfway through the day, etc.
Just curious on your reasoning.
Steve 3cubdad
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Post by PWDRacing on Oct 25, 2009 19:43:24 GMT -6
Timed vs Points. . . a "near religious" discussion.
I really stress that the racing is AGAINST THE CLOCK and not the other cars in the introduction/announcements. This helps eliminate the feeling of losing because as I explain it, they still may be 6th overall if they raced the top 5 and came in last for that one race.
As far as "track changes" happening -- it would be rare with the setup that we run. If we switch to having the kids doing all the car handling, staging, returning, etc., we will have to be more concerned about track "bumping" then we are now. Most of the races last about 90 minutes or less of racing. Very little chance of environmental changes effecting the track in that amount of time. I also keep an eye on the times of several of the fastest cars to make sure that they are running as consistent as can be expected.
The track set-up from race to race is very consistent so the times from their pack race can be compared to the district race(if they are in a district that we do the races for) and to the times for the council races.
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